Libre PC users X200 ,T400,C201 needs some help
Hi everyone
I would like to purchase one of the libre hardware officially supported PCs and i was waiting for a quite some time and i think that i am probably getting one in 2017 however i would need some performance test help in order to see if it would work for me.
I am indie game developer and i am interested to see performance of my games on these machines.
Now these games are Libre (still not fully released) and they served me as a test to see my own personal skills,see my direction in game development,test the market etc.
Long story short,there is HTML5 port that i would like from you to try on,and there is native .sh export compiled on Debian Stable so it can work on most machines,however that is not my main point of interest at this point since i did not released native code at this point(GUI transcompiler was used for game development).
Regarding the devices my main device of interest is Asus Notebook C201,which i can see that minifree listed and started to sell officially as a certified device which i am glad to hear,however i would like to see the performance on X200 and T400 laptops too,or some similar ones.
Please download from
https://8bitdev.itch.io/patformer
Patformer (HTML5-fullscreen)NoAds Version-It is browser scalable where you can scale the resolution and test the performance based on it.
If you need more info and you are unsure to help,please message me back.Thanks
I will have special thread for my games soon so this thread is mainly for the performance side of things.
Thank you in advance and have a nice day.
Hello!
I played your game (HTML5 fullscreen version) for a few minutes. I used Libreboot X200 from Minifree. (From what I read it should be near equivalent to the T400 and perhaps superior to the C201.) On it I'm running Parabola GNU/Linux-libre with GNOME Shell 3.22. Test was done in fullscreen on the laptop's display. Game didn't work in Web (Epiphany), so I resorted to Iceweasel.
The game ran quite smoothly all the time, although I only got through the first few screens, partly because of somewhat confusing gameplay (and interface), as well as the control keys probably being more difficult than intended with the Dvorak keyboard layout.
I only experienced lags and stuttering when I tried to record the game with GNOME's in-built desktop recorder, but that holds true for the whole desktop, so I don't think it should be a problem.
When it comes to the general performance of X200, I'd say it's fine. Everything usually runs well and there are no problems with the usual workload. You can even play SuperTuxKart on low settings, which came as a surprise with the fairly recent requirements increase. Personally I find my computer to start lagging a lot once put under intense (usually graphics-related) pressure, but other owners I've talked to didn't seem to share this problem.
I hope that you'll decide to go with a Librebooted laptop and continue releasing your code under free licenses. :)
Run free, run GNU!
Hi
Thank you for playing.
Before i decided which dev environment would be my main focus and why i had to test a lot of different things and collect large amount of theory knowledge so i could understand the technology and hardware behind it.
My main concern with hardware was the optimisation ,so many were not optimised for GNU/linux and i did assumed that probably much more better optimization Libre powered laptops could have since they are completely clean out of blobs and has been worked on for a long time.
My main flaw is that i can not see data on the performance,lack of video tutorials from the vendors itself and other people using it.
Also i may point out that i did used to 17inch laptops,however i can purchase smaller one and use additional display.
I hope you liked the game,there are more coming.
I am a member!
Tehnoetic T500 has the biggest screen: https://tehnoetic.com/tet-t500
I did noticed,and actually thought to support EOMA68 because it is not expensive and seemed like a good idea.
I did found out about possible flaw in bootloader,is there anything else that is wrong with the computer card(standard and actual card)?
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Please note that the C201 ARM laptop Minifree sells is not certified by FSF and as far as I can tell it's not certifiable, because it ships with Debian. Debian is known to facilitate nonfree software through official repos and docs. There might be other software freedom problems with Minifree's C201, problems that we can only find with the help of an owner of that laptop.
https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html#Debian
Minifree missuses the term "Respects Your Freedom" to mislead users to think their C201 has the FSF's Respects Your Freedom certification, like their X200 and T400 have.
http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/endorsement/respects-your-freedom
Minifree also tries to mislead people into thinking that the C201 they sell is okay in terms of software freedom by saying: "Your Libreboot C201 obeys you and nobody else. Even Richard Stallman uses libreboot!" At the same time, on the libreboot website Leah Rowe, the person controlling both minifree.org and libreboot.org says: "There is a huge cult of personality around Richard Stallman" and "Many - a lot of - FSF followers are fanatical, to the point of extremism".
https://minifree.org/product/libreboot-c201/
https://libreboot.org/why-not-gnu/
Previously their X200 and T400 have been certified by FSF while those were shipped with the fully free distro Trisquel. But now they ship with Debian and BSD: "Our laptops come with Debian GNU+Linux (or BSD)". Debian is not fully free and so far we know of no fully free BSD distro.
I'm afraid Minifree is not ethical as it used to be. They install systems that don't follow the Free System Distribution Guidelines of the GNU Project, but use the names of FSF projects (GNU), campaigns (Respects Your Freedom) and president (Richard Stallman) at minifree.org to convince people to buy, while at the same time attacking FSF, GNU and RMS at libreboot.org.
Back to the main question in this topic, if you are looking for hardware that can help you test games, a laptop that can only do software video rendering is not the best choice. Instead of the Asus C201 laptop I recommend you choose a ThinkPad laptop preinstalled with libreboot and a fully free distro at your choice (if Trisquel is too old, you can try Parabola which is bleeding edge): https://tehnoetic.com/laptops - these laptops are all FSF certifiable and are or are about to be recommended by FSF as part of their Ethical Tech giving guide: https://www.fsf.org/givingguide/v7/ I believe that the Tehnoetic X200 Tablet would be a good fit for a game developer: https://tehnoetic.com/tet-x200t
Thank you for sharing the info about minifree.I did recently found out about Technoetic i would definitely spread the word about it.
Also i would like to ask you about Devuan.
They are representing themself as an Libre OS with 4 essential freedoms on their website,however they are not endorsed by the FSF.
Are they really Libre or do they provide blobs like Debian too,just with init in it instead of systemd?
I am a member!
Last time I checked, Devuan is not better than Debian in terms of software freedom. Looking at the official list of Devuan-based distros, there are at least two that consider themselves fully free, EterTICs and Gnuinos
https://devuan.org/os/partners/devuan-distros
https://gnuetertics.org/
http://gnuinos.org/
Minifree also tries to mislead people into thinking that the C201 they sell is okay in terms of software freedom by saying: "Your Libreboot C201 obeys you and nobody else. Even Richard Stallman uses libreboot!" At the same time, on the libreboot website Leah Rowe, the person controlling both minifree.org and libreboot.org says: "There is a huge cult of personality around Richard Stallman" and "Many - a lot of - FSF followers are fanatical, to the point of extremism".
https://minifree.org/product/libreboot-c201/
https://libreboot.org/why-not-gnu/
Yes, that's true. I find it so ridiculous. Boycotting and promoting RMS, that's stupid. But in the problem of Leah is that she acts with her emotions, not with her reason. And as you know, free software is an ethical matter.
Ethics>Philosophy>Reason
No reason = no ethic. Although it's not certified, anyone who buys it can change the OS.
>Debian is not fully free and so far we know of no fully free BSD distro.
Isn't LibertyBSD free? Their websites says that they are trying to get it on the FSF's free OS list.
I want to note that the game you linked to is not currently libre. No source code is available.
Regarding what computer to use, the X200 and T400 will be the most powerful computers available with RYF certification for quite some time, I think. But I prefer to test games with the least capable machine possible given the choice, so that I can be sure that more people will be able to run the game.
There are many plans that i have in mind,i had tried many different things and i am working on releasing the full projects for my games,this is why i pointed out on HTML5,since it is the code itself rather than an port with compiled code that can not be seen.
I made 3 games as a part of the series,i did got audience,but what i did not liked,people came,played game and left.I simple don't see that working out for me.One of the main reasons for me being a part of the Libre community is to deny to treat software as a toilet paper.
I did tried many marketing methods,in game companies etc,but the way is to be what you are and to show what you do.So my games will be shared,i will make my own website explaining full story about myself and how i entered into game development,why i did and how did i found out about Libre software and how other people see it in a non understanding world.
Take a note that i did learned a lot in theory so i could achieve understanding,and there is much more on the actual hard work to do.
I started from GUI transcompilers that i have used,and it took me so much time to chose and see why HTML5/CSS3/JS is a right choice for a Libre software.I am not depended on the OS,not loosing time for packaging(not that i am not gonna do it,just mentioning)and making the code to run on most of machines.You can chose between many rendering engines(spidermonkey,V8 as open/libre ones,same for html and css)you can chose the browser(Firefox based and similar,Chromium based)or you can use V8 with QML and QT where you can extend the functionality if needed.Then you can chose OS of your choice and finally the architecture.
Web browsers are only large collection of software that is crucial and will never miss on libraries to run on,not become obsolete or have dependencies issue,library conflict.Imagine that some day distro drop the support of your choice,how much time would be spent to move all code to another one,just because single .sh as a executable is not widely used and software is packaged instead.
There are many topics and i do have a day job,it takes time and will to do,learn ,work ,make,create.
I hope you understand and will stick with me,after all i am here as you are for the same purpose and its goal.
> this is why i pointed out on HTML5,since it is the code itself rather than an port with compiled code that can not be seen.
The JavaScript code is not source code. It's minified. It's no different in this aspect from a compiled binary. The source code is what you actually worked with in the game's development, and then used to derive that minified JavaScript code.
The rest of your post seems to be arguing the technical merits of JavaScript, which I don't necessarily disagree with and don't particularly care about.
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Re: Certification
I bought a X200 right around the time of the meltdown between MiniFree and the FSF, when Trisquel was still the OS installed by default. With the SSD and 8 GB RAM upgrades I got with it, it's a stellar machine--boots quickly, runs smoothly, no complaints whatsoever about its performance.
Even though the MiniFree X200 no longer comes with Trisquel installed by default, there's nothing stopping anyone from buying it and then installing Trisquel on it themselves. I wanted to experiment on my with the full disk encryption option myself, so reinstalled Trisquel about a dozen times on my machine. If you do that, you'll have a machine that would be exactly the same as the previously certified ones.
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You can use the same argument for a vendor selling X200 laptops preinstalled with coreboot and Windows. After all, you can easily replace coreboot with libreboot and Windows with Trisquel. You don't need to disassembly the laptop to do that, just run some commands or the installer.
However, the average user, possibly coming from Windows and looking for privacy and freedom after Snowden's revelations, might not even know that Debian doesn't fully respect your freedom, and not even find about Trisquel except that it's "crap", right from the website of it's fully free BIOS replacement, libreboot:
https://notabug.org/vimuser/libreboot/commit/fb8d22f6ef43dcc989480329b381e5a3223762b6
I hate to see all the hostility in the free software community. I don't see why you have to call a project "crap" if it is affiliated with an organisation you personally dislike.
It is because the goal that is behind it.
Imagine having a person that stole 10 000 000$ dollars from poor people organising 100 000$ charity event.Should you praise him for making that charity event,or defy it?
I have to say that you do have to look at price point.
It is not the same if you are out of EU zone and do want to purchase the hardware inside of the EU or within the US.
For example taxes on the laptop from any Libre vendors that cost for example 700euros would take me between 30% to 40%(200 euros for example) onto the taxes to come in,while if i would decide to purchase device that has windows from amazon(same hardware) would cost me 150euros(lets say 200 euros in total with taxes).So in total with only tax difference gain from Libre vendor i would have whole device from proprietary ones.It is not that i am trying to say to deny to support people that are trying to do the good work,its just that it is really hard to get the shipping and taxes to work out for everyone.
The best example of cheap proprietary computing would be baytrail and cherrytrail devices and its availability ,however this is story for itself and another topic in its own manner.
I don't think that is the same thing, take a look:
https://libreboot.org/docs/install/x200_external.html
These notebooks are too expansive, I agree, but think about the work behind this.
I think that I'll buy a x200 or t400 in future
P.S. = sorry for my terrible english eheh ;)
Debian Main is free software, the only problem with it is you can very very easily lose that freedom by adding contrib and non-free. Leah went thermonuclear and is doing things pretty unprofessionally now. Far as i can tell she is trying to balance not promoting the fsf with still giving customers freedom, customers whom, surprisingly enough, confirm claims of freedom with the RYF certification issued by FSF.
I am a translator!
>>very very easily lose that freedom by adding contrib and non-free
>opening terminal to sudo mousepad /etc/apt/sources.list
>writing your superuser psswd
>manually adding contrib and non-free
>not being a borderline sleepwalker with the habit of adding repositories while not aware of it.
---
Conclusion: absolutely not 'very very easy' (unless you already don't give a pluck about software freedom, of course..)
You can turn on non-free in synaptic and Debian documents how on their wiki/website. Literally following a few official steps "to fix your wifi". Of course if you don't have the admin password it's not as easy but most people do since they installed debian for themselves.
I totally agree with "Allanitomwhesh": it's really simple to do this, I know many people that do this procedure without any problems, (and are beginners in Gnu/Linux).
P.S. = in questo abbiamo due visioni diverse SuperTramp ehehhe ma va bene così ;)
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You both clearly missed the point of my comment. Installing any proprietary software in Trisquel is as easy. If one wants to install garbage one will do so eventually. That does not make it 'very very easy to lose your freedom' if you care about your freedom in the first place. Adding the non free repo is something one needs to do manually and on his own and in full awareness of it, whatever the relevant procedure to do so might be.
No I don't miss the point of your comment: I've a different opinion, that's all. You trust in human's strenght better than me ehehe. For Debian it's not a problem: isn't a free distro, (and I spent long time on debian, you know). Anyway every distro that makes this procedure so easy make a big mistake, an ethical mistake over all: especially free distros, (I agree).
Remember, not all users had the same motivations for using free software: not all users had the same knowledge, heart and character for understand all these wonderful things, and choose how to install and why. A good free distro had the responsability to protect users from everything could be dangerous, an must be fully free by default.
Without imposition of course, but with responsability and coherence, like a father for his children.
Yes, you can use a programming language for bad purposes, or for protecting people, it's your choice, a piece of your freedom: but stay in the middle is more dangerous in situations like this, in my opinion.
I can't force a Gnu/Linux's user to install this or that, but I can say "wait, you are doing this... are you sure? Listen our story before", in a single line of code: this is a correct behavior. Or maybe creating a different structure for repository/change difficulty of non-free software's installation...
"If one wants to install garbage one will do so eventually" this is the principal reason why many people ignore free software, and why we needs to protect people from this "garbage".
For english users, my intentions are better than my english, sorry eheheh
P.S. = opinioni differenti a parte, non sparire Super ;)
I am a translator!
E certo che nn sparisco, forza lupi ke sò finiti li tempi cupi, daje daje :)
è regolareee! Anche se non seguo il calcio XD
P.S = Non credo si possa tradurre "it's regular" a sto giro hehehe
Trisquel will warn you, Debian does not.
About GM45 Thinkpads (X200, R400, T400, T500):
- thinkwiki.org has their specifications. You can use the specifications to find out which CPU is the fastest one. Note that not all models have removable CPUs, some models have soldered CPUs.
- Replacing the CPU requires a compatible CPU, but also some thermal paste.
- RAM size and speed probably has a noticable impact on the game speed.
- Power management might probably influence performances (Example: PCI power management)
- HDD/SSD speed probably doesn't impact games performances as games typically run in memory and don't access the disk much during the gameplay.
Trisquel has the phoronix test suite packaged, that might be used to do reproducible benchmarks.
About ARM devices:
- As stated above Trisquel doesn't support ARM (yet) but Parabola does.
- The chromebook C201 and the EOMA68 don't have working 3D acceleration.
- Very few ARM devices have at the same time:
- The ability to be used with fully free software
- 3D acceleration
All the potential good candidates are not supported yet by Libreboot.
- The I.MX6 devices looks promising as the 3D acceleration support
is being worked on and mainlined.
- Some Tegra ARM chromebooks probably can have 3D acceleration with
free software if someone steps up and replace the non-free GPU firmware
for it.
This has been done most/all most nouveau compatible GPUs until recent ones which have signed firmwares.
Denis.
I think that i will wait for a while and see if some of the new devices would come to the market.
I dont know if i am too skeptical and i would not have a problem buying more than 10 year old laptop if it was new inside a box never opened ,but i never buy used stuff,its just personal rule that i made for myself.
Maybe my reasoning is wrong on this one but time will tell,however soon stock will do run out,at least it is my personal opinion,i do not have real numbers at my hands.
Regards and thanks for help