Should GNU Boot become GNU Canoeboot?

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libreleah
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Joined: 04/03/2017

That is the question I sent to GNU Eval, today. My email (replies will not be published) is published here:

https://canoeboot.org/news/gnu.html

The Canoeboot project provides free (libre) boot firmware based on coreboot, replacing proprietary BIOS/UEFI firmware on specific Intel/AMD x86 and ARM based motherboards, including laptop and desktop computers. It initialises the hardware (e.g. memory controller, CPU, peripherals) and starts a bootloader for your operating system. GNU+Linux and BSD are well-supported. Help is available via #canoeboot on Libera IRC.

In particular: Canoeboot fully complies with the GNU Free System Distribution Guidelines, providing a 100% Free Software distribution, by de-blobbing coreboot, U-Boot and serprog firmwares, ensuring absolute adherence to the Four Freedoms as specified in the GNU Free Software Definition.

More info about this can be found here:

https://canoeboot.org/about.html

Other discussion leading up to GNU Canoeboot can also be found here:

https://trisquel.info/en/forum/canoeboot-20240510-released-gnu-fsdg-compliant-100-free-software-coreboot-distro-replacing-pro

What do people here think?

Should Canoeboot take its place in the GNU project?

calher

I am a member!

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Joined: 06/19/2015

No.

The history of Libreboot is too shaky: Libreboot, GNU Libreboot, Libreboot, osboot, Libreboot 2, Canoeboot... I can't be certain what will happen to Canoeboot in the future.

Thanks for your work on Libreboot (2), Leah. Hopefully neox can keep up.

libreleah
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Joined: 04/03/2017

Thank you, I appreciate your comment(of thanking me for Libreboot 2 - that's a clever name, and gave me a good chuckle).

I do hope I can convince you otherwise, through my work moving forward.

There is no reason I can think of for ever needing to change Canoeboot in the future. Its current course (GNU FSDG) is permanent. I think it would be well-placed in the GNU project, to succeed both GNU Boot and the original GNU Libreboot.

carlosgonz
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Joined: 05/28/2022

No.

Please remove "Libre" from Libreboot as Libreboot is NOT Libre but BlobBoot

Psion
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Joined: 12/29/2023

The +1 -1 rating system is very much abused here to promote cult like ideals. Your comment is proof being thumbed up like to +8 is a perfect example of this.

Privacy/Security are the most important parts of freedom.

There is nothing else that matters as far as I know other than fighting DRM itself. Beyond that? nothing.

andyprough
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Joined: 02/12/2015

@Psion - >"Privacy/Security are the most important parts of freedom. There is nothing else that matters as far as I know other than fighting DRM itself. Beyond that? nothing."

Well, the definition of free software is pretty clear, and it doesn't really deal with issues of privacy or security:
>" A program is free software if the program's users have the four essential freedoms: [1]
The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0).
The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help others (freedom 2).
The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others (freedom 3). By doing this you can give the whole community a chance to benefit from your changes. Access to the source code is a precondition for this. [https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html.en#four-freedoms]

That's not to say that privacy and security are not also in and of themselves of paramount importance. I personally make all software choices based on is it 1) free, 2) secure, and 3) privacy respecting. But privacy and security don't have anything much to do with the definition of free software. That's just my additional criteria, just like it's yours.

Psion
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Joined: 12/29/2023

I dunno, even if the fsf was designed to increase freedom, licenses all being free isn't enough.

People can still find deceitful ways to mess things up.

andyprough
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Joined: 02/12/2015

Yes but those are separate issues than software freedom issues. And, like I said, privacy and security are at the top of my list as well as yours. Really I think you have to have all of them at once, or you really have nothing. Free software, privacy respecting software, secure software and methods.

Gnu
Gnu
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Joined: 03/08/2012

Canoeboot is a horrible name, why not call it GNU START? . . and make it clear that projects have different philosophies
GNU Canoeboot / GNU START --> Free Software
Libreboot --> Open Source

FreedomForFreedom
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Joined: 04/11/2024

No.

Thank you for your work in the past, but GNU Boot is the future.

Furthermore, you've exhibited unstable behaviors in the past that it's best to avoid. Also, your Canoeboot page is almost a parody mocking free software and the FSF; don't make us have to cite point by point how you've ridiculed the free software movement with your so-called ""libre""boot.

EDIT: Damn, you're more unstable and worse than I remembered:
https://trisquel.info/en/forum/canoeboot-20240510-released-gnu-fsdg-compliant-100-free-software-coreboot-distro-replacing-pro#comment-176342
https://trisquel.info/en/forum/canoeboot-20240510-released-gnu-fsdg-compliant-100-free-software-coreboot-distro-replacing-pro#comment-176350
https://web.archive.org/web/20240507163502/https://codeberg.org/libreboot/lbwww/commit/83de07b6033250c5c113fd172badb0216e88ded1

Urbancowboy
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Joined: 10/14/2022

I'm just happy to have a bios updates on my T60. Thank you Leah for the hard work.

libreleah
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Joined: 04/03/2017

I'm very glad that my work makes you happy.

As I write this, I'm gearing up for another Canoeboot release very soon.

Psion
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Joined: 12/29/2023

Don't get me wrong, you have been unstable in the past and have had some, lets say mistreatment of people who worked for you cause.

But I am hopeful you have learned from your mistakes. Also, your new libreboot and canoeboot are far superior to old libreboot and as long as the blobs aren't privacy invasive, then you are more than doing the right thing in my opinion. Besides which as you said, HDD, SSD and EC all have non-free firmware anyways.

Point being, even though you have made mistakes, I believe we should still try to support you.

GNUboot is more than likely vaporware, not to mention a security risk and a vulnerability. Better than stock bios, but so many things are better than the stock bios.

Anywho, I hope you keep unlocking new hardware for libreboot. It would be awesome if you could unlock thinkpad X270 and X280 and similar.

I love the idea of being able to charge my devices with usb-c instead of the ac adapter and even better than that, have a librebooted + intel me disabled 7th gen intel processor computer.

I hope you will succeed in breaking past bootguard on newer computers.

final
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Joined: 06/06/2024

Instability is the feeling you give off and the sexism card seems of out place tbh....

All public projects thrive on adaptability, ability to collaborate and public trust!

You don't give the impression to have enough good allies, the organizational capacity and the flexibility to improve in the long run, so maybe focus on fixing all that...

Urbancowboy
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Joined: 10/14/2022

This is awesome news ! Super stoked to see whats comes of these projects.

libreleah
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Joined: 04/03/2017

We are moving faster than anyone can blink. As I write this, I'm completing Libreboot's 5th build system audit (and syncing the changes in Canoeboot). After I'm done, I start testing a bunch of new machines for entry into both projects.

Psion
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Joined: 12/29/2023

X270 has the same bootguard vulnerability as T470 supposedly. It was on the list of devices affected.

So it really depends on if the bootguard bypasser works on all devices that have the vulnerability.

Psion
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Joined: 12/29/2023

Oh btw, this can potentially be librebooted as well:

https://frame.work/

the intel chromebook version.

I thought i should mention this.

Intel me disabled + libreboot on that would be interesting.

libreleah
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Joined: 04/03/2017

yeah i know of them. pretty nice company IMO (even if i'm not actually sure whether any of it runs coreboot)

thing is, i and probably other lb devs probably wouldn't buy one of these; we already have machines we use that we like, and thoes machines (framework) are expensive

i didn't know they have a chromebook version. if that's the case, i'd assume it's using (google's fork of) coreboot; i'll add it to my radar, but don't expect anything soon (i'm just saying this so as to set realistic expectations)

Psion
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Joined: 12/29/2023

They have a chromebook version which is pure coreboot. Just need to relax some of the settings to use it for libreboot probably.

Framework chromebook version can be ported to libreboot I am pretty sure.

Reason this interests me somewhat is because, they have some interesting upgrade modules. They will also be the newest laptop vendor to have trackpoint option and coreboot as options at the same time. :)

final
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Joined: 06/06/2024

No Leah, this doesn't look good at all.
Nobody says that you aren't a skilled programmer, but from a project maintainer the userbase expects emotional stability and intellectual honesty.

You publish from 4 to 17 social media posts every single day at all hours of the day and night, in the same social profile where you also make announcements for the projects.
You seem to be in constant search for admiration, followers and self-confirmation, often with foul-mouthed, provocative or attention-seeking content, anti-social behaviour that seems to have worsened over the last years.
The boastful and self-promotional nature of your answers in this very discussion doesn't help either.
Maybe you aren't touching grass as much as a healthy person should.

The efforts of the volunteers are wasted if your narcissism ends up staining the reputation of the free software movement. Also, the combination of a distorted concept of meritocracy and the consistent tendency to overvalue yourself and undervalue the perspectives and feelings of the other community members is worrying to say the least...

Good and lasting projects are based on healthy collaboration, both with the volunteers and the userbase, not on the cult of personality and toxic subordination.

Avron

I am a translator!

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Joined: 08/18/2020

This forum is to help Trisquel users. Information on a new canoeboot version is fine and a guide for Trisquel users to install Trisquel with encrypted boot with Canoeboot would be welcome.

For things that don't really help using Trisquel, please use the Troll Lounge.

andyprough
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Joined: 02/12/2015

>"Well, Trisquel is pretty good as FSDG distros go; it's one of the easier to use distros and mostly Just Works (if your hardware doesn't need firmware blobs - which is the main problem with FSDG distros on modern hardware, and that's just a fact, no matter how you feel about it one way or the other)."

I am using brand new(ish) hardware with Trisquel no problem - a 2023 Alder Lake laptop with Xe Graphics and Coreboot Dasharo. It does "Just Work". It can't be Libre/Canoe/GNU-booted, but it runs Trisquel just fine with no adjustments.

However, I'm sure there are other new desktop and workstation setups that do require more blobs than Trisquel provides - maybe with specific nvidia cards. But overall, Trisquel is not the problem. As long as I stick to Intel chips with integrated graphics, Trisquel "just works" for me no matter the setup.

andyprough
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Joined: 02/12/2015

>"This project gets 1000x more donations that it deserves. Its really just ubuntu with a different color of paint more or less."

I couldn't disagree with you more. As someone who has donated repeatedly to this project, I'm very happy with the work that's being done by these devs. If you don't like systemd that much, just use one of the many non-systemd FSF approved distros - Guix, Hyperbola, Parabola, Dynebolic. And there's the fully free GNUinos.

Psion
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Joined: 12/29/2023

My point when I said that was because, Trisquel is mostly just blobless ubuntu.

Hyperbola on the other hand goes to radical levels to try and fix problems. Sometimes too far for me, but mostly its on target.

Guix still has chromium doesn't it? That's not libre at all.

Parabola and Dynebolic, no idea.

Gnuinos? No idea either.

Its not just systemd, its all the bloatware they tolerate.

I should also add, Trisquel already has 10x more money that they need too.

While *distros like Hyperbola are greatly in need of funds to move forward.

I mean wouldn't anyone want them to create a libre BSD?

And also, if they did, you could potentially make a fork of that and add the programs you miss, back potentially.

My reason is to say, they get overfed while some other distros are way underfed.

That's the irony.

Psion
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Joined: 12/29/2023

Usually maybe, I mean men more often are unstable and in a violent way especially.

I was not aware that you thought this.

I was not trying to be insulting btw. Just recalling some things, including gnu libreboot moment. I am sure you have learned from your mistakes though.

In either case, your beliefs on the bios are in my opinion on point.

A lot of software is getting bloated as you have said as well. Openwrt for example, coreboot, etc.

not to mention your take on software masquerading as source code when its deliberately being made hard to audit in the case of a well know init system.

Even if you don't need my approval, your views on bloat and libreboot are close enough.

The only time I disagree right now beyond the first part I mentioned is that I think its too early to recommend people use non-ath9k wifi cards.

Until someone reverse engineers the newer ones successfully to where they don't need blobs, I recommend not recommending them.

Psion
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Joined: 12/29/2023

More specifically, more code = more bugs.

This seems to be the pattern emerging.

This is why I avoid Desktop Environments. I could use Lumina in this regard, but its not needed since I got JWM + JWMKIT.

libreleah
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Joined: 04/03/2017

i like lxde myself. i know cwm/dwm/dwl are much more lightweight and robust but it's what i'm used to and quite minimalist.

Psion
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Joined: 12/29/2023

JWM is very customizable and as a window manager it has a taskbar and everything else that you could want as long as you have jwmkit.

My reasons for liking it are that it uses so little cpu and memory power and it has taskbar potential of xfce4 and others.

JwmKit makes it possible to poweroff in jwm. reboot and suspend too. Logout was always available though as was lock.

My point I guess is that JWM is the most functional of the lightweight window managers that uses the least cpu power at the same time. Its the best both to those two situations cpu power and functionality.

Not easy to do, but man does that please me.

libreleah
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Joined: 04/03/2017

I want LWDE.

LXDE ported to Wayland. Unfortunately, the one I like (the gtk2 one) probably wouldn't work nicely in that setup. I like LXDE because it's lightweight; the gtk3 version however is heavier.

There just aren't any good lightweight desktop environments anymore; we always have dwl, but that's a tiling windoow manager. LXDE is still really great and the only reason I'm stuck on Xorg for the time being. I refuse to use anything else.

Geshmy
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Joined: 04/23/2015

I am really liking i3. I installed a jgmenu which I bound to mod + m so that I could have a pop up menu giving access to some desktop applications that dmenu didn't show. I've always used a desktop, usually xfce but I think I might be converted to window managers now. Only real problem is can't copy/paste to and from a terminal.

Psion
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Joined: 12/29/2023

Depends on the terminal. IF you use sakura you can copy and paste from a terminal regardless of the desktop environment and most window managers.

I have it so if i press S + alt on my jwm config that it brings sakura terminal up.

Among other tricks.

you can do keybindings on jwm is my point. With or without jwmkit.

Geshmy
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Joined: 04/23/2015

Thanks Psion, Sakura does the trick.

andyprough
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Joined: 02/12/2015

Sakura is like a hidden gem, so light, flexible, desktop agnostic, and yet full featured.