Slackware
I recently installed Slackware to my 2nd drive. On my PC grub2 doesn't seem to work if installed to the 2nd drive. Slackware gave the option to install a boot loader or not. I chose not to and then ran update-grub in Aramo (had to enable os-prober with a line in /etc/default/grub) and it worked fine.
I did not realize it is the oldest continuing GNULinux distro.
Systemd is missing which would make some people happy. I like the XFCE desktop fine. I seem to have a skimpy ffmpeg installation - simplescreenreader and avidemux aren't compatible with each other but vlc works with both. I miss Abrowser.
Anyway, license is a bit of a mystery. They say "Each piece of Slackware (this is true of all Linux distributions) is developed by different people (or teams of people), and each group has their own ideas about what it means to be “free”. Because of this, there are literally dozens and dozens of different licenses granting you different permissions regarding their use or distribution. Fortunately dealing with free software licenses isn't as difficult as it may first appear. Most things are licensed with either the Gnu General Public License or the BSD license. Sometimes you'll encounter a piece of software with a different license, but in almost all cases they are remarkably similar to either the GPL or the BSD license."
For some reason, I had difficulties with maybe as many as 5 distros trying to get one working from my 2nd drive. It was a few days into the project before I thought of 'slax' and ended up finding Slackware. It seems to be a fine desktop choice because it's not trying to do to much by default.
Slackware has the two usual problems: there's no clear policy about what software can be included, and nonfree blobs are included in Linux, the kernel. It also ships with the nonfree image-viewing program xv. Of course, with no firm policy against them, more nonfree programs could get in at any time. There is an unofficial list of nonfree software in Slackware.
Source https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html#Slackware
Anyway, license is a bit of a mystery. They say "Each piece of Slackware (this is true of all Linux distributions) is developed by different people (or teams of people), and each group has their own ideas about what it means to be “free”.
Any distribution, Trisquel included, combines many pieces with different licenses. Distributions have different policies about acceptable licenses. As Alice wrote, Slackware includes nonfree software, unlike Trisquel.
Systemd is missing which would make some people happy
I was getting 'happy' already!
What a pity Slackware includes nonfree software.
Geshmy, Alice and Magic Banana --- thank you all for sharing the knowledge!
There seems to be a "GNU+Linux-libre distribution derived from Slackware" https://freenix.net/
What's wrong with systemd?
I think what is wrong is my lack of knowledge :)
I wish I could switch systemd off, so I can use Trisquel, which I love, as a standalone system.
Does that make sense?
systemd is Trisquel's init system.
In Unix-based computer operating systems, init (short for initialization) is the first process started during booting of the operating system. Init is a daemon process that continues running until the system is shut down. It is the direct or indirect ancestor of all other processes and automatically adopts all orphaned processes. Init is started by the kernel during the booting process; a kernel panic will occur if the kernel is unable to start it, or it should die for any reason. Init is typically assigned process identifier 1. Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Init_system
Thank you Alice, this is so informative!
Including this detail:
init (short for initialization)
'init' makes sense now, when we can put terms in context, things begin to make sense.
>"There seems to be a "GNU+Linux-libre distribution derived from Slackware" https://freenix.net/"
Oh wow, for some reason I had thought freenix was kind of abandoned a few years ago, but I see they have the latest Slackware 15.0 in their repos and a bunch of freenix packages that have been updated over the past 4-5 months. I need to try this out.
>"What's wrong with systemd?"
Nothing's wrong from a software freedom perspective. However, it is a huge, sprawling RedHat project which some people feel takes the system in too much of a corporate/enterprise/Windows-ish direction. Others, like me, note that it's hard to run a system with minimal resources with systemd like we can with sysvinit or runit. But, in the end, it works, and it works well with Trisquel, so I wouldn't feel concerned about it if it hasn't caused you problems in the past.
... some people feel takes the system in too much of a corporate/enterprise/Windows-ish direction
Yes!
Damn, systemd is bad. My opinion same as written on there: https://nosystemd.org/
Btw, i have bad experience with systemd.
I wish Trisquel has non-systemd variant
My opinion same as written on there: https://nosystemd.org/
Certainly one more list of terrible "proofs" that systemd is evil. Although I have wasted my time on such lists (see https://trisquel.info/forum/about-systemd#comment-120735 for instance), I have decided to stop. Here is my take on the "systemd hate phenomenon": https://trisquel.info/forum/systemd-free-trisquel-variant#comment-149916
Btw, i have bad experience with systemd.
Please explain. Trisquel has been using systemd by default for more than five years and I do not remember any systemd-related issue on this forum.
>"I do not remember any systemd-related issue on this forum."
That is not true, I've consistently pointed out an issue with systemd, which is best described by this diagram:
That is a very enlightening diagram, thank you!
That is exactly how I see it when I can't find THAT kill switch to the outside.
I checked the issue tracker, and found exactly one issue related to systemd, a build issue that seemed to vanish after quidam stepped in. Maybe there are others, but I failed to find them.
So if users have had problems with systemd, it must have killed them before they managed to report it, in which case andyprough does have a point and Alif is lucky to be alive.
I like to have a choice, so I am closely following projects like Gnuinos, a Devuan derivative aiming at FSDG compliance. It also uses Linux-libre, but it does not use systemd.
Trisquel is beautiful and beloved, even with systemd :)... huge thanks to all who make it so.
An image of Alif, after prospero unfortunately reminded systemd that Alif got away alive: https://media.tenor.com/3MuX4AU08SMAAAAd/cthulhu-illithids.gif
For anyone finding it puzzling that someone who now works for Microsoft is still the lead dev for systemd, these may be good reads, courtesy of PublicLewdness and andyprough, respectively:
https://www.phoronix.com/news/Systemd-Creator-Microsoft
https://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2020/05/02/0/index.html#utopia
"...the entire journey was revealed to be a dead end, and what followed was extensive surgical incision to remove the traces of a sprawling master daemon. Wayland replacing X has similar broad outlines." The saga is far from over, stay tuned...
Such a great quote to end that darknedgy blog post:
"Just as Poettering et al. rose like lions to depose the foxes that lived complacently, so too will they now in place of the foxes be overthrown by a new breed of lions of their own making. Who, from where and doing what are unknowns about which I can only idly speculate."
It's truly frightening to think of the amount of work that will eventually be required to replace systemd though. The ideal situation would be to stay outside of that structure and avoid all that future pain. But that will get harder and harder as systemd gets even more ingrained and takes over even more processes far beyond its original mission scope.
The smart folks are going to be the ones who are right now already onto the next big thing, be it s6 plus s6-rc or whatever it ends up being, who surf that wave all the way into the post-systemd future. We really need a libre distro that boldly explores that future - maybe my next Libre respin should be of Artix or something that's already onto s6. Distrotube did some videos recently showing how to make a respin of an Arch distro which should apply to Artix too I'm thinking. Maybe I can make that a project to do a Libre Artix Respin with s6 plus s6-rc for the init manager. I've tried that combo before with Linux-libre and without nonfree packages - it's so fast it will melt your brain or your cpu, whichever it gets hold of first.
Or maybe the next big thing is already here, and it's Guix + GNU Shepherd. Another area to spend more time exploring this year.
Thank you andyprough, I'm glad to read your post before going to the blog, will do that next and keep an eye on what you pointed out here:
... as systemd gets even more ingrained
That "ingrained" phenomena has been a pebble in my shoe since I started on the path to GNU/Linux, and the pebble keeps growing steadily as I begin to learn.
How can we exercise the freedom to modify/remove what is unwanted if by doing so we kill what is wanted AND essential?
The smart folks are going to be the ones who are right now already onto the next big thing... We really need a libre distro that boldly explores that future
A big YES PLEASE to that!
That "ingrained" phenomena has been a pebble in my shoe since I started on the path to GNU/Linux, and the pebble keeps growing steadily as I begin to learn.
Same reply as the one I wrote to radhitya:
Please explain. Trisquel has been using systemd by default for more than five years and I do not remember any systemd-related issue on this forum.
radhitya has not explained (although he has written another post since then).
I see Trisquel as a big part of the solution, not the problem.
Let me explain in a simple way.
This is what I want:
- "The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0)."
- "The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this."
This is what systemd gets me:
- No freedom to eliminate what you don't want, because you would destroy what you want/need in the process.
- No freedom to do your computing as you want, because what you don't want is often inextricably joined with what you want/need. Some system files are also unreadable.
What do you "want/need"?
systemd is free software, including according to the FSF that maintains the definition you quoted: https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Systemd
Guix is all free software. Doesn't use systemd.
GNUinOS is all free software. Doesn't use systemd.
Hyperbola GNU/Linux is all free software. Doesn't use systemd.
Parabola is all free software. Does use systemd.
Parabola OpenRC is all free software. Doesn't use systemd.
Freenix is all free software. Doesn't use systemd.
Trisquel is all free software. Does use systemd.
What do users want? Freedom and choice. And it looks like they have both freedom and choice, so this is not a real problem.
It would be nice to have init choices on Trisquel, but it's not possible because Trisquel is based on Ubuntu where init choices are not possible.
c'est la vie
I am a translator!
> Parabola OpenRC is all free software. Doesn't use systemd.
That version of parabola tend not to be as well maintained as the systemd version.
> It would be nice to have init choices on Trisquel
I tried using parabola with systemd and with openrc, I wasn't able to see any difference besides maintenance issues.
In order to hack my system, I had a lot more to deal with dconf or dbus than with the init system, and I would probably be more interested in alternatives to those than to the init system, but that is work and perhaps there are more urgent things.
You may already know this, but Hyperbola is the distro that works without dbus or dconf and lots of other things like systemd and puleaudio. Of course that severely limits the applications you can use - for example no Firefox or Abrowser or Icecat will run. You can build a libre version of Pale Moon or Basilisk as your browser instead, or use Hyperbola's out of date versions of Iceweasel. You can't use most desktop environments, although you can use DWM or JWM or the Lumina desktop. There's no Libreoffice, but you can painstakingly build it to run with the right compile options.
I am a translator!
>There's no Libreoffice, but you can painstakingly build it to run with the right compile options.
I cannot judge for the rest but this makes Hyperbola not really usable for me.
In general, I am looking for documentation to help configuring my system, rather than for replacements. I'd like to find documentation for dbus that is as readable as GNU tools such as bash or awk.
In general, I am looking for documentation to help configuring my system, rather than for replacements. I'd like to find documentation for dbus that is as readable as GNU tools such as bash or awk.
I would love to hear about what you discover and learn from it, it would be a step forward!
I've destroyed many installations in the quest for detangling parts of systemd, quite painfull at times, but great learning. Now I'm being careful, configuring, disabling, masking and NOT removing anything (at least for now :)
Sorry I send a blank message.
You can install Libreoffice via GUIX but you have manually install GUIX.
Oh, and Hyperbola I think recommends that you add Parabola's repo's to
your package list downloader thing. pacman.conf
That sounds like it would either break Hyperbola or just turn it into a Parabola installation. I'll look into it though.
>"You can install Libreoffice via GUIX but you have manually install GUIX."
Yes, and you can install modern browsers and all kinds of things on Hyperbola using the Guix package manager. I've done it myself, and written about it here. However, the Guix package manager installs dbus and everything else it needs to run those programs. So, by using the Guix package manager, you are kind of missing the point of running Hyperbola. At that point you would be better off just running Trisquel, or running the full Guix distro.
> At that point you would be better off just running Trisquel, or running the full Guix distro.
...or running away shrieking in panic, because the beast is coming to get you anyway.
As I noted earlier, you really need an animated diagram if you want to capture the complexity of all of systemd's moving parts, and I think this one does it best: https://media.tenor.com/3MuX4AU08SMAAAAd/cthulhu-illithids.gif
Interesting list to explore, thank you for that and for putting things in context.
What do users want? Freedom and choice. And it looks like they have both freedom and choice, so this is not a real problem.
Yes, I think we have the best available freedom and choice, but is it as free a choice as we could have? As you said...
It would be nice to have init choices on Trisquel, but it's not possible because Trisquel is based on Ubuntu where init choices are not possible.
Is confusing to look at all of this from a beginners' point of view. The current picture feels like the perspective was distorted at the initial draft, a long long time ago, and now we can't see a way to adjust the view and put it right.
Can't think of a clear way to express it yet, maybe time will help.
At DistroWatch: https://distrowatch.com/devuan
What do you "want/need"?
What I want is very simple Magic Banana...
I want a standalone machine for my personal use, without any 'doors'[*] to the outside.
([*] I'm using the word 'doors' here as a figure of speech)
I realise Trisquel takes very good care of remote connections, 'doors' are safely secured with clear notices of no trespass, which I see as a great achievement by the development team - many thanks again for that!... but even if well secured, I would still like the option to start clean, with basic connectivity (internet, email, chat), and expand on that WHEN and IF needed, selectively, one by one.
I find the word daemon very descriptive... I wish we had angels instead :)
To list the active services:
$ systemctl --type=service
If you want to list the inactive services too:
$ systemctl --type=service --all
To stop a service (here the SSH server):
$ systemctl stop ssh
To not have it started at init:
$ systemctl disable ssh
Now, if you do not want it installed at all, erase the related package (with APT for any Debian derivative, including Trisquel).
That is the basic usage of systemctl you apparently want/need. It can do more:
$ man systemctl
Thank you very much for the commands Magic Banana! I've been using some of them already, thanks to all the information and help from the people on the forum, including yourself, who introduced me to many new concepts.
I've disabled and masked quite a few services already and am amazed at how smoothly Trisquel is running - fast and almost silent! As for the remaining occasional background noise, I found I can use it as guide, by listening for anything and everything that can also be gone.
Now, if you do not want it installed at all, erase the related package (with APT for any Debian derivative, including Trisquel).
It is good to know it can be done. Thanks for giving me confidence to look into that route again!
Thank you for the links Prospero, I'm going to check them out!
Thanks again for the links Prospero!
Great read!
Utopia was particularly interesting, even though I might have to revisited it at a later date to absorb more of the rich information... it has already inspired unshareable thoughts :)
As for the article on necrosoft connections, you can almost smell the air under those floorboards!
What is wrong with systemd is already well answered. But I wouldn't use Trisquel if there was another GNU / linux-libre distribution I would be able to use (GUIX being sadly too nerdy for me).
So, what is wrong with Freenix? This: https://freenix.net/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=slackware_14.2 (but future version will have hopefully less and at some point none of those licensing issues).
https://freenix.net/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=slackware_14.2
Those are the non-free packages included in Slackware 14.2 distribution, they are not present in Freenix.
Oh, I made the mistake a while ago and kept this page and just copy / paste the link without reading it again.
Thanks.
So, freenix might be the next OS I'll try (when I'll have more free time).
Thanks for the links Alice, I might look into freenix.
Re: systemd - I accepted it (have used Trisquel for a long time now and think it's awesome) but I think systemd's targeted audience is server, maybe network admins. All the distros that went with it are being commercial because that's where the money is to be made. An old guy trying to stay relevant and up to date on his simple desktop maybe doesn't need what systemd offers. It seems like arch and slackware share an approach that starts out minimal and makes the user responsible to fill in what they need. I read that Slackware kind of expects users to know how to work with configuration files. (Sound of music) So all you need is nano, all you need is nano, all you need is nano...nano's all you need.
What does it take to make another distro work with jxself and company's deblobbed kernel? I tried that kernel on some distro based on Mageia but it wouldn't boot without the blobs.
You explained it well, I think some of us have needs that exclude networking, servers and all the other goodies on offer... personally, I want my computer to be an extension of my studio - by appointment only! I think I am a little bit closer to that now... I can almost hear the silence of the masked daemons.
>"What does it take to make another distro work with jxself and company's deblobbed kernel? I tried that kernel on some distro based on Mageia but it wouldn't boot without the blobs."
I've never tried Mageia, but I used to use Linux-libre with a free'd version of opensuse, and each year I make a Libre Respin of antiX which runs with Linux-libre.
>"(Sound of music) So all you need is nano, all you need is nano, all you need is nano...nano's all you need."
No config file that can't be made,
No config changes that can't be saved,
It's easy!
Thank you for the treat!
The sound of Geshmy and andyprough makes things flow :)
>"(Sound of music) So all you need is nano, all you need is nano, all you need is nano...nano's all you need."
No config file that can't be made,
No config changes that can't be saved,
It's easy!
Andyprough forgot a line
should be
All you need is nano (Rupp,rupp, rupruprup)
All you need is nano (Rupp,rupp, rupruprup)
All you need is nano ...nano's all you need
No config file that can't be made,
No config changes that can't be saved,
you can do it all if you know how to play the game
It's easy!