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Jodiendo
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More bull-crap!

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JadedCtrl
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Joined: 08/11/2014

Bull-crap? How so?
They're trying out some experimental features and want feedback, what's so wrong with that?

loldier
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Joined: 02/17/2016

I understand they have a brand to uphold and competition-wise they can't fall behind, but I'd like a small footprint no-nonsense Firefox that it used to be. On my libertyBSD netbook box, starting Firefox takes longer than booting the OS.

SuperTramp83

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Joined: 10/31/2014

That's because firefox is actually 5 times more complex and bloated than your (or mine) DE.

danieru
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Joined: 01/06/2013

Only 5 times? If we take the lines of code as a metric to how comples/bloated a software is then we have that:

Firefox has like 13,484,884 LOC[1]
So Firefox is 25 times more complex than LXDE with 525,309 LOC[2]
And 5406 times more complex than my actual WM

But maybe someday I'll run NetSurf as my main web browser. Which is 47 times less complex than Firefox at the time of writing this.

[1] https://www.openhub.net/p/firefox/analyses/latest/languages_summary
[2] https://www.openhub.net/p/lxde/analyses/latest/languages_summary

SuperTramp83

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Hmm, interesting, Danieru. I wrote 5 like I could write 25 for I have no real data to base my assumption. I am very curious now, do you happen to know how many lines of code Xfce 4.12 has?

P.S: I reckon there is a huge probability of many bugs an attacker could potentially exploit within 13,484,884 lines of code..

Magic Banana

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I found 325,365 lines of code in Xfce 4.12 with the following commands ('sloccount' is in Trisquel's repository):
$ wget -O - http://archive.xfce.org/xfce/4.12/fat_tarballs/xfce-4.12.tar.bz2 | tar -xj
$ for f in src/*; do tar -xjf $f; done
$ sloccount .

SuperTramp83

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Joined: 10/31/2014

Tx Magique for your command, always appreciated.

I browsed a little bit more that website Danieru linked. This thing made me think. I'm in for some change on my setup, I want to get rid of bloated software. For starters I purged icedove (which with enigmail is 1 million lines of code) and installed claws-mail (100 K of lines, that is 1/10).
I like it better, fast and simple. Am considering purging Pidgin and installing gajim instead.

danieru
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Joined: 01/06/2013

I am happy to know that my comment was useful to you.

> "For starters I purged icedove (which with enigmail is 1 million lines of code) and installed claws-mail (100 K of lines, that is 1/10)."

Same here. Same reason, same replacement :D
Mailing with claws-mail for 5 months now.
I'll admit that it is not perfect, but boy it's so much more responsive than fatdove. Don't you love to fly light? XD

SuperTramp83

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> Don't you love to fly light?

Yeah! But apparently claws mail has some issues with riseup, I did not test it enough, will research it more. I can receive mail and decrypt it but when I send my mail the dude I send it to tells me there is nothing in his mail box. I set everything as it was in icedove, I also followed this guide and yet I keep having the same issue.

On the other hand Gajim works great for jabber. So does Hexchat for IRC (purged pidgin).
Now, if I could only find a decent lightweight browser..

EDIT: claws mail works just fine.. It's the dude I first tested it with that does not work fine. Great client.

danieru
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Joined: 01/06/2013

> "purged pidgin"
Same here. That pigeon is a risk to public health with that many exploits, bugs, and security holes!

> "Now, if I could only find a decent lightweight browser.."

Personally I'm using Firefox until 45. After that they will make it GTK3 only at some point and GTK3 sucks to much. I mean, GTK2 already sucks enough. But GTK3 it's a whole new level of BS that I can't take. After Firefox 45 loses support I'll purge that fatfox on life support and install NetSurf.

Keep NetSurf small
NetSurf is a web browser with a small footprint, and we want to keep it that way.
Portability
We want NetSurf to be available to as many users as possible. We've already seen ports to handheld devices and would like to help anyone attempting a new port.
Modularity
Many of of the components designed for NetSurf are available separately, so that others might use them in their own projects.

http://www.netsurf-browser.org/about/

JadedCtrl
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Joined: 08/11/2014

Why not Midori? It's portable, lightweight, more modern than NetSurf, and has GTK2 and GTK3 clients.
Does NetSurf have any particular advantages over it?

danieru
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> "Why not Midori?"
It depends on WebKit which is at 6,337,752 LOC. That's not much difference from the 13M LOC of fatfox.

> "It's portable,"
Yes, but still not as portable as NetSurf.
Just look at their downloads page: http://www.netsurf-browser.org/downloads/

RISC OS
Linux and other Unix-likes (Like the BSDs)
Haiku & BeOS
AmigaOS
Atari
Mac OS X

> "and has GTK2 and GTK3 clients."
Doesn't seem to be the case any longer with midori-0.5.11

> "Why not Midori? [...] Does NetSurf have any particular advantages over it?"

Yes. There are some:

1 NetSurf has developed his own modules to render the web.
And they try to be portable, small, simple. It's not the same from Midori, Midori only cares about faster launch times and a little bit less of memory usage. While NetSurf it's prepared for embedded systems.

2 Ultimate portability. It supports:
RISC OS
GTK
BeOS
AmigaOS
Atari
Mac OS X
The Linux framebuffer
SDL
X
VNC
The ABLE framebuffer

(This is also a disadvantage as it makes it a little more bloated. But still way too far from fatfox)

JadedCtrl
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I've gotta say, you've convinced me-- I tried it just now, and it was very speedy and loaded simple webpages like a dream.
Rendering the Trisquel website, though, wasn't so dreamy...
Does it do the same thing for you, or is it the build I'm running?
EDIT: I think it's just NetSurf. It's like this for a lot of sites, but the Trisquel forums is the only one really bothering me. Maybe a hackish JS 'booklet' could switch the CSS around with something a little more NetSurf-friendly.

netsurflbsd.png
danieru
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Yeah, it lacks important HTML5 and CSS3 (also JS but I don't care because I disable that completely on fatfox anyway).
You can see the progress on specific standards here:
http://www.netsurf-browser.org/documentation/progress.html

As I said bafore NetSurf it's not my main browser yet. For the time being I just keep a close eye to it's development.
They have been focusing on JS support lately by integrating a JS engine called Ducktape. And that's great but adding right-click download of image would be a much greater improvement for me.

can't download.png
SuperTramp83

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Joined: 10/31/2014

Just found out about qupzilla - has anyone here tried it?

danieru
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I did, like 3 attempts with qupzilla as a possible less bloated alternative.
But for me it's still pretty bloated and not all the features I would expect.

I've also tried: Abaco, Conkeror, Dillo, dwb, edbrowse, ELinks, jumanji, Links, Lynx, surf, uzbl, Vimperator, VimFX, w3m and xombrero

Please tell me about what you find if you try those of other web browsers.

SuperTramp83

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Danieru, dillo is awesome, superfast. Xombrero I tried it yesterday, it loaded the websites quite slowly (compared to dillo or even TorBB when on a good circuit), Lynx is only text, a no-go for me as I need my cat pictures collection constantly expanded, enriched x_X
Netsurf is good, I need to test it more, I have version 3.2 on Debian though, I think I'll compile the latest version and test it more.
Haven't tried any of the others you listed.

I am using the TorBB for like 90% of my browsing, it loads and feels 2 times faster than Firefox, I have no idea why, I imagine the tor project debloats a good part of it.

danieru
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Yeah, At fist Dillo seemed promising for me. But then I discovered NetSurf which has more active development, a little better rendering and it's a more focused project. So for now NetSurf it's my #1 in my list of promising web browsers.

danieru
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Actually, NetSurf it's so portable. It's kind of funny.

I will run everywhere.png
SuperTramp83

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> That pigeon is a risk to public health with that many exploits, bugs, and security holes!

It's not pidgin, it's libpurple, defined by many sec doods as a "security nightmare". Truth be told pidgin has not had known vulnerabilities in a long time, but I find gajim great and already like it better.
One thing worth stressing out and relative to the topic is that pidgin also stores all your account passwords in clear text in your home directory, which is a bad idea. This will get solved though in the next release version (3.0).

https://motherboard.vice.com/read/secure-messaging-might-not-be-so-secure-otr-libpurple

Tx for netsurf, will try it out.

tonlee
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Joined: 09/08/2014

how do you select search provider in netsurfer?

danieru
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You go to Edit -> Preferences and then in the "main" tab you'll see the "Search" section. There (as of NetSurf 3.5) you can enable searching from the URL bar, and also change the search engine or "provider" as NetSurf calls it.

Don't know how to add more search engines or "providers" to that list though.

tonlee
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Joined: 09/08/2014

You then use the google search?

danieru
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Supposedly you edit a file named "SearchEngines" to add more search engines, but I'm not sure.

SuperTramp83

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The quest for lightness brought me to the big sea and there on the mighty main, while contemplating the nervous waves, a monkey appeared, and he spoke to me and thus he spoke:
"lo and behold, the sea that always moves, the shiny waves and the deeply buried secrets, the sea, the sea."

A seamonkey 'twas -> http://www.seamonkey-project.org/

Web-browser, advanced e-mail, newsgroup and feed client, IRC chat, and HTML editor -> 774,885 lines of code

FF Web-slowser -> 13,484,884 lines of code

All the greatness of what once used to be a great browser!
(noscript and httpseverywhere supported, ublock origin too and a lot more)

:))

danieru
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Now that you mention it, I don't remember trying SeaMonkey. I'll see the dependencies of that monkey when I'm home. Since you know, a Web Browser, IRC, RSS, and HTML editor in just 774,885 LOC sounds too good.

SuperTramp83

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Seamonkey is not only light and superfast but also an incredibly rich and powerful browser, it leaves ff in the dust :) I really recommend you try it.

danieru
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Yeah, I forgot to see it's dependencies. I'll take a note this time.

BTW I figured it out why my file "SearchEngines" was ignored.

This file has to be in /usr/share/netsurf/SearchEngines
In my case was installed in /usr/share/netsurf/:./gtk/SearchEngines

danieru
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So, for SeaMonkey the only "extra" dependency compared to Fatfox seems to be that pinentry has to be compiled with gtk support.
Nothing else. That's great!

Another pro is that the support for chatzilla (IRC client) can be disabled at compile time.
This is good for me since HexChat is good enough and I don't want to depend too much on SeaMonkey so I can migrate to other simpler web browser more easily than with Fatfox

Also, you might want to compile SeaMonkey yourself just to disable gmp-autoupdate (some optional binary blobs).

danieru
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So, compile times where very similar between fatfox and SeaMonkey.
Start times where too similar with 10 seconds for fatfox and 8 seconds for SeaMonkey.

BTW my NetSurf starts on only 1.4 seconds.

It would seems, no matter how this monkey struggles, he can't reach the lightness of NetSurf, because what he sees in the sea is only the reflection. So time after time, the monkey sinks.

can't reach.png
SuperTramp83

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Danieru: on my old lappy Seamonkey starts and feels three times faster than slowfox.. Namely 8 seconds vs 25 x_X
Loading a page with 20 gifs in ff and the same in seamonkey is two quite different experiences. The monkey from the sea does all but sink.

danieru
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> "Namely 8 seconds vs 25"
Holy monkey. I didn't think fatfox would make that much difference on a slower computer.

Well, SeaMonkey has another pro for me and that is it's GTK2. Could be an option when fatfox goes GTK3 only.

catfishes

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Can't seem to get Seamonkey I get an insecure connection error on the download page :-(

SuperTramp83

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catfishes
wget https://download.mozilla.org/?product=seamonkey-2.40&os=linux&lang=en-US

extract and run the executable

EDIT: actually nope, wget doesn't work fine with that link but you can download it with TorBB and it doesn't give any insecure connection warning and works fine, I just tried.

Ckeck the shasum!!

https://archive.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/seamonkey/releases/2.40/SHA1SUMS

Jodiendo
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OYE! Amante Mono marino..

I downloaded the Linux version and it works beautiful, and did try the Windows version and it is faster than FIREFOX.

For the sea-monkey windows version, I was able to install the following plug gins.

1-HTTPS-everywhere
2-Privacy Badger
3-Self destructing cookies
4-U-block Origin
5- Comodo Anti-virus
6- No script
7- User over rider agent

In my opinion,It works fine.
Yet after A few test tryouts in booting and response the GNU-LINUX for debian Mozzila and the sea monkey version are pretty stable.

SuperTramp83

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Good, Nuevo Amante Mono marino..
But what is an anti-virus? :)

Also, consider installing the latest aurora build for the 2.40 (stable) is very old and brings several unresolved security fixes.

http://www.seamonkey-project.org/dev/aurora

Jodiendo
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1-HTTPS-everywhere
2-Privacy Badger
3-Self destructing cookies
4-U-block Origin
5- Comodo Anti-virus
6- No script
7- User over rider agent
I forgot to add:
Bleachbit.

My Anti-virus recommendations and the rest are for users of Windows only.
Yet in Debian, you could download this applications that are GPL license.

JadedCtrl
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Yea, Firefox is really bloated.
I use it as little as possible, using Vimb whenever I can.
It takes twenty to thirty seconds to start up for me-- longer than any other program I have installed. :s

hack and hack
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The startup speed isn't great (several seconds, but after that, it's fast enough, unless it's loading a heavy page.

But I have a dozen of addons turned on at all times, mainly for privacy, and a bit for security, so that counts.
That's mainly why I can't be comfortable with a simpler browser.

I also have a weird freeze for long seconds, nearly a minute, when open and go through the bookmark menu.

But I intend to really understand theplugins to use only what's vital, and make as much tweaks as possible to make it boot faster.

hack and hack
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Also Privacy Badger,
Referrer-control,
Random Agent Spoofer,
Ublock Origin,
Decentraleyes,
Disconnect maybe,
Self-destructing cookies,
and Policeman or or an equivalent anti-redirection program.

I wouldn't feel like browsing safely and privately without many of these.

Mangy Dog

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Just trying Lynx and well it's really super..do we do what..

Screenshot-Lynx 7 at Trisquel: ~-Desktop.png
SuperTramp83

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but..but..I would miss the mangy dog art with lynix. No way!

Mangy Dog

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dida dida...lol

220px-Lynx_lynx_poing (copy).jpg
minibus
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I found the following thread helpful:

http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/best-cook-vegetables

I followed most of the suggestions

I have pasted them here: http://pastebin.com/LLyvV77x

1454454198512.jpg
SuperTramp83

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Much more needs to be modified in about:config
I'll leave you the relevant lines of my prefs.js so you can take a look. I'm using TorBB and Seamonkey now.

As far as the panoptithing test -->

With TorBB:
one in 153.363537118 browsers // 7.26 bits

With Semonkey (noscript, httpseverywhere, ublock origin and the ton of modifications in prefs.js):
one in 767.677595628 browsers // 9.58 bits

cheers

EDIT: I now get 1 in 65 // 6 bits
meh...

AttachmentSize
prefs.txt 8.53 KB
JadedCtrl
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If I had a quarter for every time a SeaMonkey KO'd a Firefox in a fight...
I'd always get a quarter-- SeaMonkey's a water type!

SuperTramp83

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hehe ^^

Misty
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NoScript is awesome, I wonder though, If we block a tracker before the page gets completely loaded, I hope it keeps the tracker out. When a page loads, I wonder how long it takes for our info to be read/collected, I assume it's instantaneous, but would it have to wait till the page is completely loaded.