Videotelephony on Trisquel 7

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Magic Banana

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I used to use http://meet.jit.si or http://vroom.im to do videotelephony through WebRTC between two Trisquel 7 systems separated by an ocean (I live in Brazil, my family in France). They do not work anymore. Maybe because of enhanced privacy settings in Abrowser that I could reverse? What alternative reliable (and hopefully simple) solution would you recommend me? I can install anything on both Trisquel 7 systems.

Alexander Stephen Thomas Ross
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was this after installing updates?
other wise maybe they need a newer version of firefox(what abrowser is
based on)? they might have upgraded the JavaScript of the services using
new things in latest ff version?

Magic Banana

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The current version of Abrowser in Trisquel 7 is based on Firefox 56 (Firefox 57 in Trisquel 8).

dsj19
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I use wire for videocalls. One downside though... You don't known when the other person is online. Otherwise it does the job.

GrevenGull
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May I ask you the process of installing Wire?

I can't seem to figure out how this whole Github/git thing works :/

dsj19
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You can head over to https://wire.com/en/download/ and download their binary build or use the browser version: https://app.wire.com/

GrevenGull
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This I am aware of :)

My problem occurs when I am directed to the github, because I have a hard time figuring out how installing packages through github works. However, I think I was onto the right path some minutes ago, but it seems as though it was necessary to download something called node.js to get it going. Do you happen to know if node.js is free/libre? :)

I would like to avoid using the browser version. I think rms talks about this kind of thing somewhere, but I can't remember where.

Magic Banana

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GitHub hosts the source code. It is not to download the program from. Not a way to install it. The program can be compiled from source. Simpler, the project site distributes DEB packages:

With GDebi (in Trisquel's repository: install "gdebi" from the package manager), you can then double-click on the .deb file to install it.

I will try Wire. Thank you dsj19.

GrevenGull
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Ah, thanks! That slipped my mind.

However, since I am in the process I think I might try to install it the other way, just to learn something new :)

When you say "compiled from source", is that related to the github site where you can "clone" etc etc?

Magic Banana

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Cloning the repository is copying its content onto your disk. See https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2/Git-Basics-Getting-a-Git-Repository for git's basic... that however require some previous knowledge in the use of a terminal!

In my previous post "It is not to download the program from" should be "It is a place to download the program from".

GrevenGull
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I see. My problem when it comes to this is what I do after the:

git clone https://github.com/wireapp/wire-desktop.git

.. according to the description seen a little down here: https://github.com/wireapp/wire-desktop#install , one need to install node.js (which I have) and npm (which I have) and then run:

git clone https://github.com/wireapp/wire-desktop.git

and then:

cd wire-desktop

and then:

npm install

... but for me, that outputs some wierd errors which I have elaborated more in another post ( https://trisquel.info/en/forum/nodejs-free )

calher

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On Sun, 2018-01-14 at 14:45 +0100, name at domain wrote:
> I see. My problem when it comes to this is what I do after I do the:
>
> git clone https://github.com/wireapp/wire-desktop.git

This program uses Electron. Most Electron programs are distributed in
such a way that free JavaScript code originally under a pushover license
is accidentally redistributed under no license, which makes that
particular distribution of the program proprietary. Fedora excludes
Electron apps because of this.

Also, Electron itself may have user freedom issues. Chromium is inside
Electron, and not all the source code to Chromium has been verified as
being under a free license.

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Magic Banana

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I have just checked every .js and .css file in https://github.com/wireapp/wire-desktop/tree/master/electron and its subdirectories. The rest is HTML, JSON, and images, i.e., data. It looks like the Wire developer make a good job at inserting the GNU GPLv3+ copyright notice at the beginning of almost all .js and .css files (the original source code being under a pushover license, it can indeed be sub-licensed under the GNU GPLv3+, to be integrated with code bearing that license).

The only exceptions I found are:

What do you think? Should I open a bug report about the last file not having a copyright notice?

GrevenGull
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Yes. File at will.

Magic Banana

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With LibreJS, the "New issue" button does not do anything. And I believe one must have a GitHub account to file an issue. Signing up requires executing proprietary JavaScript too.

If somebody here already has a GitHub account and does not care about executing the proprietary JavaScript to file an issue, please do so. I listed above all source code files in the "electron" directory that do not have a copyright notice. Since almost all other files have such a notice, I believe the developers actually want to make it clear all source code files (not only in the "electron" directory) are "under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the License, or (at your option) any later version" (as written in the other files) and will be happy to fix the issue.

https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/html_node/Copyright-Notices.html recommends (for GNU developers, but that is good advice to any developer) such a notice for "any file more than ten lines long". That same page says that "even image files and sound files should contain copyright notices and license notices" (in a README file in the same directory).

calher

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On Sat, 2018-01-13 at 22:53 +0100, name at domain wrote:
> Does Riot still work? I never used the videoconferencing feature, but it's
> what I'm using to communicate with my person in written English.

Riot video works. I use it with my boyfriend.

> The web app is/was easy to install on T7 if you're having the same problems
> with your browser that I am on what I have to use instead of Trisquel or Uruk
> temporarily.

The web app uses Electron, which uses Chromium, which has some code that
is probably not under a free license.

Also, the app probably fails to distribute some permissively licensed
JavaScript libraries under a free license, which renders those
particular distributions proprietary. As an example, compare this to
Android being redistributed as Amazon Fire OS.

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ADFENO
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I recommend XMPP, and any client software that is able to use Jingle,
and has it enabled. If I remember correctly, Trisquel's Pidgin has it
enabled.

At GNU Guix, we need some help to get both Pidgin and Gajim to have
Jingle enabled.

Jingle works well with one-to-one voice/video.

2018-01-13T20:11:42+0100 name at domain wrote:
> I used to use http://meet.jit.si or http://vroom.im to do
> videotelephony through WebRTC between two Trisquel 7 systems separated
> by an ocean (I live in Brazil, my family in France). They do not work
> anymore. Maybe because of enhanced privacy settings in Abrowser that
> I could reverse? What alternative reliable (and hopefully simple)
> solution would you recommend me? I can install anything on both
> Trisquel 7 systems.
>

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GrevenGull
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When I click "Add account" in Pidgin and choose the XMPP protocol, there are tons of option, what does all those options mean?

Some options are quite obvious like username and password, other are very techie.

Magic Banana

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Only the username (what comes before "@"), the domain (what comes after "@") and the password are required.

GrevenGull
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I see, thanks. so a mail adress is required?

Magic Banana

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An XMPP account is required. It looks like an email address because, like email servers, XMPP servers are federated: you can communicate with somebody in another domain.

GrevenGull
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Ahha. There's actually an elaborated guidance here: https://xmpp.org/getting-started/

Is it so that anyone can create an XMPP server at their own home or wherever? I'm thinking of this: https://list.jabber.at/

Magic Banana

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With the required knowledge (server administration), yes.

ADFENO
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Not actually, in some XMPP clients like Pidgin, there is a checkbox
"Create the account on this server", this will attempt to tell the
server to create that account you just inserted --- if the server
supports it being done through the client software.

Note that XMPP recommended standards also involve in-band registration
(the thing that allows you to register using the client software
directly, for more information see [1] and [2]). Unfortunatelly, some
service providers don't provide this function (if they don't do so just
because they have to get user's email, in-band registration can already
do this if I'm not mistaken, it just seems that the service provider
doesn't seem to understand how to do it).

[1] https://jmp.chat/suggested_servers.html.

[2] https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0077.html.

2018-01-17T00:04:41+0100 name at domain wrote:
> I see, thanks. so a mail adress is required?

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GrevenGull
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> "Not actually, in some XMPP clients like Pidgin, there is a checkbox
"Create the account on this server", this will attempt to tell the
server to create that account you just inserted --- if the server
supports it being done through the client software.
"

Aha, I see, cool :)

> "Note that XMPP recommended standards also involve in-band registration
(the thing that allows you to register using the client software
directly, for more information see [1] and [2]). Unfortunatelly, some
service providers don't provide this function (if they don't do so just
because they have to get user's email, in-band registration can already
do this if I'm not mistaken, it just seems that the service provider
doesn't seem to understand how to do it).
"

I see:) thanks for elaborating

SuperTramp83

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Was about to recommend this one -> https://jabber.at/

But they (temporarily) suspended new registrations :/
Another one I can recommend is -> https://neko.im/

You should always use OTR (possibly an updated version of it)

calher

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On Sat, 2018-01-13 at 20:11 +0100, name at domain wrote:
> I used to use http://meet.jit.si or http://vroom.im to do videotelephony
> through WebRTC between two Trisquel 7 systems separated by an ocean (I live
> in Brazil, my family in France). They do not work anymore. Maybe because of
> enhanced privacy settings in Abrowser that I could reverse? What alternative
> reliable (and hopefully simple) solution would you recommend me? I can
> install anything on both Trisquel 7 systems.

I still works for me, although desktop sharing does not work very well.

My non-libre boyfriend uses WebRTC to call me.

Sometimes, when we watch a show in person and want to finish watching it
remotely, I'll full screen it on another workspace and share that window
over WebRTC. We've thought of using Syncplay, but we can't get it set
up, and I can only host services over Tor at my house.

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strypey
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I have a page about chat-related free code projects, open standards and common protocols here (Disintermedia wiki is having issues right now but should be back up soon):
https://www.coactivate.org/projects/disintermedia/core-us

One of the things I noticed in gathering this list is that there isn't just one application for realtime comms software. There are lots of different kinds of realtime communication that can happen online; one-to-one (chat), group-to-group (conference), one-to-crowd (livestream presentation), group-to-crowd (livestream panel discussion). Then there are other forms of group chat that are semi-asynchronous (IRC, Slack-a-likes). No one chat apps needs to do all of these things, but to have any chance of displacing Skyte, Hangups FarceBook Messenger, Zoomin, and Slick, we need user-friendly apps that between them cover all of these use cases.

Some of these use cases make more sense as client-side apps (one-to-one chat), ideally without a server. Although I've heard pure P2P chat networks like GNU Ring and Tox make it hard to transport an identity/ address between devices, and create engineering challenges for supporting mobile use cases. Others use cases make more sense as web apps, if you're having a group chat using a server, why not use a web client running on that server? One answer might that you are a business or a political organisation who want to own your private comms, but then you can run the servers hosting the chat back-end and the web client yourselves.

Mumble is one of the few free code chat apps I've managed to get working and get some use out of. Mainly because most of the complexity is outsourced to whoever is running the Murmur servers I connect to, and Mumble doesn't increase its complexity by an order of magnitude by trying to support video. But a lot of people really struggle with the IRC-like UX, and recommending Mumble to someone looking for a Skyte replacement really isn't good user support :{

As I've said in a number of threads on these forums when the topic of realtime comms comes up, I'm keen to form a team and meet regularly (one a month or fortnight) to test different free code chat apps together. We can get a clearer sense of which use cases each package is suited to, and give some quality feedback to the devs about our experiences. If anyone is keen, you can use the direct message system in these forums to send me an email, or look up my contact page on the Disintermedia wiki (when it's working again):
https://www.coactivate.org/projects/disintermedia/danyl-strype

ADFENO
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2018-05-15T19:11:25+0200 name at domain wrote:
> I have a page about chat-related free code projects, open standards
> and common protocols here (Disintermedia wiki is having issues right
> now but should be back up soon):
> https://www.coactivate.org/projects/disintermedia/core-us

I tested XMPP client-to-client audio calls using the Jingle XEP and it
works. Jingle also supports video, but I haven't tested it because I
don't have anyone to test with. One challenge is now how to have
free/libre software *in the phones and tablets* that supports that
XEP. As far as I know, Conversations doesn't support it, and no people
from Jitsi sent a package request to include it in F-Droid, so testing
and recommending Jitsi in mobile is also difficult for me.

> semi-asynchronous (IRC, Slack-a-likes). No one chat apps needs to do
> all of these things, but to have any chance of displacing Skyte,

Indeed, no app needs to fit it all.

> for supporting mobile use cases. Others use cases make more sense as
> web apps, if you're having a group chat using a server, why not use a
> web client running on that server? One answer might that you are a
> business or a political organisation who want to own your private
> comms, but then you can run the servers hosting the chat back-end and
> the web client yourselves.

I personally view "web apps" as traps nowadays even for personal
use. Look for "Meltdown", "Spectre" and their relationship with the
Web[1] and Gerwitz' talk about the surreptitious attack on privacy,
security and freedom[2]. Additionally, these web interfaces appear to be
more limitting than helpful[3].

> Mumble is one of the few free code chat apps I've managed to get
> working and get some use out of. Mainly because most of the complexity

I find Mumble to be one of the software that serves to do appointed
meetings, and works really well for that purpose. The issues is when
your group has both a XMPP group room/channel and plans to use Mumble
for a given meeting and have some members with issues in order to open
and use Mumble. This one has only one client per platform and using only
Mumble may ignore the rest of the group. In a similar issue, those who
already have XMPP account with a server and a client that supports
taking the chat history from the server are better using the XMPP group
since it can present the history that grew before that person connected,
and also because they already have an account that is able to connect
from server A to any group on any server (not just A).

> IRC-like UX, and recommending Mumble to someone looking for a Skyte
> replacement really isn't good user support :{

Yeah, recommending Mumble to replace Skype isn't a good idea. They serve
different purposes. To replace Skype use XMPP with a client that
supports the Jingle XEP.

[1] https://mikegerwitz.com/2018/01/Meltdown-Spectre-and-the-Web

[2]
https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/m/the-surreptitious-assault-on-privacy-security-and-freedom/

[3]
https://mikegerwitz.com/2017/06/Don-t-force-me-to-use-your-tools-on-the-Web

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strypey
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> "To replace Skype use XMPP with a client that supports the Jingle XEP."

Except that ...

> One challenge is now how to have free/libre software *in the phones and tablets* that supports that XEP.

*sigh*. Since most people (who aren't geeks) now do most of their internet telephony on their mobile device, this isn't really a solution. Have you tried GNU Ring or a Tox client on a mobile (I don't have one yet but plan to get one).

Adfeno:
> "I personally view "web apps" as traps nowadays even for personal use."

With all due respect for Mike (who is a cool guy), I think he's out on a limb here. The whole reason we might use a web app for telephony is because the person we're trying to communicate with uses Windows or MacOS, which means we can't rely on any conversation we have with them being secure *or* private. Excluding web apps like Jitsi Meet or Wire from consideration, means eliminating all the options that are most likely to work reliably cross-platform. Since the person we're trying to talk to will inevitably experience the whole thing as a test of whether free code software is as good as proprietary software, making them using unreliable, inconsistent solutions like XMPP is hugely counterproductive IMHO.

strypey
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Me:
> "With all due respect for Mike (who is a cool guy), I think he's out on a limb here."

Having now read the links Adfeno provided, Mike's point are quite valid. They're just a bit out of context here. He's not saying "let's not ever use web apps'. He's saying "I don't like using web apps coz they're no Emacs" (fair enough but true for a number of people so small it makes the margin of error look like a crowd), and "just because a program runs in the browser it doesn't mean it's less of a security issue than one installed on the system". Which is true, but kind of irrelevant for reasons I mention in my last comment.

GrevenGull
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You can get Wire as a desktop program though

Mampir
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My experience with audio/video calls with XMPP/Jabber clients is that it quiet often it doesn't work or it's very unreliable. I had much better experience with Tox clients, such qTox and uTox. I've only tried those on Parabola though and I don't even know if they are available on Trisquel yet.

jgart
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Have you tried linphone and/or linphonec (terminal program) I have used it and it works great. It uses the SIP protocol.

chaosmonk

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> Have you tried linphone and/or linphonec (terminal program) I have used it
> and it works great. It uses the SIP protocol.

I've being using linphone for phone calls. It works the best out ot all the graphical sip clients I've tried. Somehow I didn't know linphonec existed, but it's the cli alternative I had wished for. Thanks.

Sasaki
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framatalk is a french instance of jitsi meet that just works on my abrowser 59.0.2

strypey
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Has anyone tried NextCloud Talk?
https://nextcloud.com/talk/

Apparently, a replacement for their use of the WebRTC server Spreed. For future releases they are planning server-to-server federation for calling, and an XMPP integration, and they have talked to the Matrix team about possible integration with the Matrix protocol too:
http://karlitschek.de/2018/01/nextcloud-talk-is-here/