VS Code is free software?

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dcapeletti
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Hi, there,
I'm looking for an IDE for python. VS code is going very well and I want to have it in my system. According to the FSF website it's free, but I have my doubts. What do you think? https://directory.fsf.org/wiki?title=Visual_Studio_Code&oldid=36929

Thank you

CalmStorm

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Do what stallman recommends, or use eclipse or idle3 or some other libre alternative.

nickylodeon
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This is a part of the license that implies to the 'product'. The source code of the vscode with HUGE 'OPEN SOURCE' near it is under MIT license with Microsoft reserving all their rights.

The software contains third party components licensed under open source licenses with source code availability obligations. Copies of those licenses are included in the ThirdPartyNotices file or accompanying credits file. You may obtain the complete corresponding source code from us if and as required under the relevant open source licenses by sending a money order or check for $5.00 to: Source Code Compliance Team, Microsoft Corporation, 1 Microsoft Way, Redmond, WA 98052 USA. Please write “third party source code for Visual Studio Code” in the memo line of your payment. We may also make the source available at http://thirdpartysource.microsoft.com/.

. . .

SCOPE OF LICENSE. The software is licensed, not sold. This agreement only gives you some rights to use the software. Microsoft reserves all other rights. Unless applicable law gives you more rights despite this limitation, you may use the software only as expressly permitted in this agreement. In doing so, you must comply with any technical limitations in the software that only allow you to use it in certain ways. You may not

- work around any technical limitations in the software;
- reverse engineer, decompile or disassemble the software, or otherwise attempt to derive the source code for the software except, and solely to the extent: (i) permitted by applicable law, despite this limitation; or (ii) required to debug changes to any libraries licensed under the GNU Lesser General Public License which are included with and linked to by the software;
- remove, minimize, block or modify any notices of Microsoft or its suppliers in the software;
- use the software in any way that is against the law; or

And this is their privacy statement which I am lazy to quote, but it as absurd, as above: https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement

I agree with CalmStrom

nickylodeon
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The continuation of the 4th restriction:
- share, publish, or lend the software, or provide it as a hosted solution for others to use, or transfer the software or this agreement to any third party.

So I think that you will be better satisfied with libre software like Emacs :)

calher

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VSCode is an Electron program.  Electron includes a huge amount of code
derived from Chromium, so it is in the same undetermined state as it.

Therefore, many of us do not use Chromium, Etcher, Riot Desktop or
VSCode.

gd_scania
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So semi-nonfree like the same issues found from Qt5-WebEngine? PureOS has liberated Qt5-WebEngine and I have sources at home.

FirstUser
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https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode/issues/60#issuecomment-161792005
Hopefully this explains everything. My opinion: don't give up, grab the code, compile it and enjoy an awesome libre IDE.

nickylodeon
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It is interesting that the only one comment that raises the question of justice and freedom (maybe not as directly, as needed) doesn't get any reply.
https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode/issues/60#issuecomment-295544710

He shouldn't have written "free of charge" too, but basically he thinks in the right direction.

FirstUser
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Apparently nobody had anything productive to say (or maybe these people are more "open-source-oriented" and don't care about software freedom, as long as unobfuscated code is available?). I have, however:

It's up to the program authors to decide, what license do they release it under. They decided that the sources are libre, their binaries are their property. Where's the problem? They can't be compiled with libre software or something? The authors' vision is so evil that we should boycott them and not use their libre code?

I just don't understand, I thought that as long as software is released under a libre license, it's absolutely fine to use it.

CalmStorm

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That thread was given about as much respect as this one:

https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5644

CalmStorm

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I was going to ignore the thumbs down, but I feel its important, to say why I put this post here,

Anytime you lock a thread just because you don't want to hear something, you should lock it from everyone responding including yourself.

You shouldn't block only people who might disagree with you.
My point being, in the spirit of freedom all I was saying is that you either lock it completely or leave it open. That's it done and done.

Magic Banana

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About https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5644 :

You were already given this reply. https://trisquel.info/forum/fsf-adds-pureos-list-endorsed-gnulinux-distributions?page=1#comment-125187 for instance.

Please, do not resume derailing threads that have nothing to do with systemd. By the way, since the release of Trisquel 8 (which adopted systemd), I have seen no thread pertaining to problems with systemd. The same basically happened with all major GNU/Linux distributions, which adopted systemd years before Trisquel.

CalmStorm

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Man, you need to chill out, I was only saying that they should have locked the thread or left it open to everyone.

geez, and stop telling me what to do man, you are not my master.

ps, in trisquel you are correct, no threads related to systemd problems, but in others you don't know for sure as they could have been immediately locked.

I am only going to tell you this once, enjoy systemd if you like it, but stop flaming people who disagree with you.

Such arrogance...

ps, I brought up that systemd thread as A JOKE!

seriously... again, arrogance to think you need to flame anyone who makes even a tiny joke about anything you meaning Magic, like ...

onpon4
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Using a thread that has nothing to do with systemd to publicly shame a systemd developer doesn't strike me as a very nice thing to do. How would you like it if on some forum about, I don't know, turkey sausages, some random guy was linking to your posts on the Trisquel forums and making fun of you for them? Incidentally, that person would likely get a warning and have his post deleted; most forums have a policy against bringing in drama from other websites/forums.

CalmStorm

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I don't understand how this is wrong, I never, have said you cannot make fun of anti-systemd inits, just don't do it in anger.

If you like systemd, good for you, I just don't get why at the drop of a coin I make a joke about it, and you guys go to town on me.

You can do the same thing, just don't flame me over it that's all.

I was not flaming nor shaming, I wasn't intending to make this into a big issue, I merely was saying, it doesn't look good when you lock a thread from everyone but people who agree with you. Poettering just as easily could have locked it fully. That's all.

I don't create drama intentionally, you greatly misunderstand my purpose with this, I do the same thing with my president, donald trump, I make jokes about him for amusement purposes. Not drama.

PS, This goes for magic banana too, I don't say you have to do things my way or else... and I don't say both of you have to agree with me, just be respectful, not angry. If you disagree, fine but people will talk if they disagree. You have the right to think what you want and say what you want and so do I.

onpon4
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> I never, have said you cannot make fun of anti-systemd inits, just don't do it in anger.

No. Not inits. You. You do realize that the systemd developers are people, right?

> I just don't get why at the drop of a coin I make a joke about it, and you guys go to town on me.

If I may be frank, you didn't make a joke. All you did was link to a thread which had nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand, and made a statement about it.

Is this a good joke in that same context?

"They took that issue about as seriously as these vegans took my rebuttals!"

Or is this a form of targeted harassment toward the vegans I've linked to?

> I do the same thing with my president, donald trump, I make jokes about him for amusement purposes.

Don't quit your day job.

Magic Banana

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in trisquel you are correct, no threads related to systemd problems, but in others you don't know for sure as they could have been immediately locked.

We are back to conspiracy theories.

CalmStorm

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Conspiracy theories aside, I don't know if systemd is a backdoor or not, I just prefer not use it,

but tell me, why has devuan succeeded in getting community support when fedora's and

ubuntu's systemd-free forks failed?

Just wondering what your thoughts are.

onpon4
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> why has devuan succeeded in getting community support when fedora's and ubuntu's systemd-free forks failed?

I can't say I know what you're talking about. It's been a long time since I looked, but when I did, Devuan was lagging severely behind Debian. Meanwhile, Debian continues forward exactly as before, and Fedora has been using systemd for years with no apparent drop in "community support".

Of course, it's an argument from popularity anyway, which is fallacious.

Magic Banana

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Conspiracy theories aside, I don't know if systemd is a backdoor or not

systemd is free software, the best defense we have against malware. Unless somebody points out a piece of systemd code that implements a backdoor, it is reasonable to believe there is none.

but tell me, why has devuan succeeded in getting community support when fedora's and ubuntu's systemd-free forks failed?

Most users sticked to their distributions when they switched to systemd. Those users have either seen no difference (almost all "simple" users), except maybe a faster boot, or improvements (mainly server administrators): no reason to switch to a fork, which therefore fails.

The anti-systemd public is probably mostly composed of users who, like you, have no technical argument against sysyemd but who decided it was bad anyway. Maybe because they read articles such as http://www.infoworld.com/article/2608798/data-center/systemd--harbinger-of-the-linux-apocalypse.html that predicted "the Linux apocalypse" because "Red Hat has released RHEL 7 with systemd" or, by the same polemicist, https://www.infoworld.com/article/2608870/linux/you-have-your-windows-in-my-linux.html that predicted a "schism over systemd [that] could lead to a separation of desktop and server distros, or Linux server admins moving to FreeBSD".

That was four years ago. Since then, all major GNU/Linux distributions have adopted systemd by default, there has been no "Linux apocalypse", no schism between desktop and server distros, FreeBSD has not suddenly become more popular (on DistroWatch.com, it was ranked 17th in 2014 and 30th in the last 12 months), and Red Hat has almost doubled its revenues: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1087423/000108742318000010/rht-10kq4fy18.htm#sF656807914B25FDB96A1C024F2D288CB

The prophecy failed. The well-studied mechanisms to cope with the cognitive dissonance are at work in the (small) anti-systemd community: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails

CalmStorm

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Okay, but what advantages does systemd have then that makes it worth changing to besides being easier on developers.

I honestly don't see any so far, other than that its easier on the developers. I have seen more cons than pros personally.

But actually I read devuan's position and without-systemd.org and nosystemd.org.

I read something about how it is a neverending project. Poettering even said that according to wikipedia, and I am wondering what his goal is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd

Tell me, is the accepted answer at this link correct?

https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/5877/what-are-the-pros-cons-of-upstart-and-systemd/6190

It says it manages passwords even

onpon4
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> what advantages does systemd have

Lots. *Everything* about systemd is better than SysV-init, which is why no one ever planned on keeping the latter. The battle was between systemd and Upstart, and systemd won out because the Debian developer community decided that systemd was the better choice and as such, Ubuntu decided to switch to it too and abandon Upstart development.

Of course systemd isn't used universally; for example GuixSD uses GNU Shepherd and Gentoo uses OpenRC. But systemd is very popular for Linux-based systems because it's very good at what it does.

> I have seen more cons

Such as?

> it is a neverending project

I should hope so! If it wasn't, that would make it unmaintained. Linux is a neverending project, that's the only reason it's safe to use.

Magic Banana

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That "answer" is dishonest. I only needed the first point to reach that conclusion. It is supposed to be about "su command replacement", what leads to believe that 'su' should not be used on systems with systemd. According to the author: "[Lennart Poettering] explains that 'you can use su and sudo as before, but don't expect that it will work in full'", what leads to believe that systemd has forced 'su' and 'sudo' to lose features. One click on the provided link and you discover that the author removed the last four words in Lennart Poettering's sentence, which is, in full:

Well, you can use su and sudo as before, but don't expect that it will work in full, because it never did.
https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/825#issuecomment-127957710

Lennart Poettering explains:

['su' is] supposed to open a new session and change a number of execution context parameters (uid, gid, env, ...), and on the other it's supposed to inherit a lot concepts from the originating session (tty, cgroup, audit, ...). Since this is so weakly defined it's a really weird mix&match of old and new paramters.
https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/825#issuecomment-127917622

That part is, again, stripped out from a quote in Stack Exchange's answer. The quote only keeps the statement that follows: "su is really a broken concept", as if that blunt affirmation was not justified. How honest is all that?

Notice that 'man su' does not say otherwise:

The current environment is passed to the new shell. The value of $PATH is reset to /bin:/usr/bin for normal users, or /sbin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin for the superuser.

'machinectl shell' does *not* "replace" 'su'. 'su' works *exactly* the same whatever the init system, including systemd. 'machinectl shell' is a new feature. Nobody is forced to use it. Unlike 'su', it provides a shell that inherits nothing from the originated session, i.e., the same shell the user would get logging in "normally".

https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/ is good material to compare init systems: defenders of every popular init system argue in their respective favors and criticizes the other init systems. The arguments are mainly technical, harder to understand than lies such as "systemd replaces good ol' 'su'".

onpon4
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Wow, so some systemd haters are actually engaged in active quote-mining? I didn't expect it to be that bad.

joepublic
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> has devuan succeeded

Devuan, unlike Debian before it, is not committed to freedom on principle. The release notes for Devuan 2.0 say, for example, "All Devuan 2.0 ASCII install media make non-free firmware packages available at install time".

All Devuan install media contain nonfree packages: That doesn't look like a successful, freedom-promoting fork of Debian to me; other peoples' opinions may differ, of course.

gd_scania
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So definitely VScode is nonfree for sure, then you instead need free IDE's like Eclipse.

nickylodeon
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I think that the problem is that the majority of potential vscode users don't mind about freedom. So they will get proprietary software from Microsoft, which misleads them by calling it 'open-source', and uses the power of the community to make non-free software.
I believe that everyone should be very accurate when using anything 'open-source'. Yes, what Microsoft is doing is evil, and it is not fine.

I would feel awful even if I had a libre copy of vscode.

chaosmonk

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> I believe that everyone should be very accurate when using anything
> 'open-source'.

See this bug.[1] Micro$oft doesn't just distribute a proprietary binary; they falsely tell users that it is free and open source on the download page[2] for the binary. The fix is simple: either (a) remove the phrase "Free. Open source." from the download page, or (b) replace the download link with one for an MIT-licensed binary, yet 18 months and 30 comments later the bug is still open. Clearly it is not an oversight but intentional deception.

[1] https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode/issues/17996
[2] https://code.visualstudio.com/

nickylodeon
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chaosmonk, I've just read it. Oh, what a shame.

dcapeletti, I hope you have no more doubts ;)

calher

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On Wed, 2018-08-01 at 02:13 +0200, name at domain wrote:
> I would feel awful even if I had a libre copy of vscode.

$ sudo apt purge cups

Heckyel
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The most recommended is that don't use the vs code. In his replacement always this emacs. And if you want a basic and pleasant configuration I have a basic personalization of emacs

nickylodeon
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Yes! What an awesome thing to look at 4:34 AM. It makes me want to make a cup of coffee or two.

calher

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Oh, show me your Emacs config! :D :D :D

khanh_duong
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> According to the FSF website it's free

This is not true
https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Visual_Studio_Code

It hasn't been approved yet, and I doubt it will be accepted.

AlexMex90
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Hey forum, long time member/lurker, logged in just to add my $0.02 USD

The Visual Studio Code binary from Microsoft is proprietary. It uses the MIT-licensed source code available at https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode as its base, however it contains changes that are not distributed.

There is a Free build in Flathub which is also compiled from the MIT-licensed code and is released under a free license (GNU Affero General Public License v3). This free build is available here: https://github.com/flathub/com.visualstudio.code.oss

This free version is also published in Flathub: https://flathub.org/apps/details/com.visualstudio.code.oss
That one should be preferable, however, I don't know what is the situation regarding plugins, if it does anything to prevent the installation of non-free plugins, or if it allows plugins at all.

t3g
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Since Trisquel is based on Ubuntu, you can also install the Snap:

https://snapcraft.io/vscode

xdknight
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VS Code is Microsoft's stuff. When you install it, it immediately starts to send your data to Microsoft, only after that is asks "Whould like to continue send data to Microsoft?"
You should avoid Microsoft stuff as it was fire.

MICROSOFT NEVER GIVES SOMETHING FREE! Just always remember this.

FirstUser
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"MICROSOFT NEVER GIVES SOMETHING FREE! Just always remember this."

Funny, I swear I just saw a useful text editor released as MIT-licensed free software. Wait, nevermind. It's Microsoft who released it, the company which deserves the strongest hate for whatever it does, that's why it should be avoided. Since rational thinking of using free software is no match for the feelings directed towards this company.

What data does it send exactly? I trust you have studied the sources (I never had time and patience to do so), so can you answer me and point to the code responsible for sending that particular data? So I can quickly replace it and send whatever I want to the next time I compile and use it. Thank you in advance.

J.B. Nicholson-Owens
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name at domain wrote:
> You should avoid Microsoft stuff as it was fire.
>
> MICROSOFT NEVER GIVES SOMETHING FREE! Just always remember this.

I understand that Microsoft has earned a horrible reputation and most of
the software they distribute is proprietary (which is an injustice in
itself). However I would rather we teach people to evaluate programs by
what appears in the source code and by the program's licensing, not the
reputation of the copyright holder.

It's entirely possible Microsoft's free software is trustworthy; worthy of
use, enhancement, and continued distribution just like any other free
software. After all, free software puts us in a position to not have to
fall back on vague prejudicial estimations like reputations.

hadipeyrow
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Why you don't use powerful editors such as vim and emacs? vim and emacs has many great plugins for python development.

freeatlast

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as far as VS code is concerned only the source code is free software flathub does contain propritatary software such as spotify and steam so unless you are running pureos an fsf approved distro you should not use flatpak