Wa can change, but not in one day
Hi all,
I'm a GNU/Linux user/lover, I like trying many distros (Mint, Fedora, Debian, Manjaro, etc...) just to see the difference between them and find the right one for me.
I write this post after seeing some other posts about Steam OS and Trisquel users' thought on it.
I'd like to say first that I fully understand the FSF position about free sotfware and I agree with it. I also understand that these args are applyable to video game too.
I'd like to ask one thing : why not to be to see potentially many users switching from Windows to GNU/Linux systems thanks to Steam ?
Ok, Steam is a DRM platform and I am uncomfortable with this too. I'm often afraid by Valve getting so much power with such a proprietary system applyed to video games.
Moreover, I understand that Steam into a GNU/Linux system can come with other proprietary code or software. This is just impossible to accept for users that *already understand* the importance of free software (really free software).
But, most users of computers are not aware at all about all these considerations (free/proprietary software). They are so used to Windows, and all proprietary software that we need one big thing to happen to make them switch from Windows. This is, in my opinion, the 1st step. This step is the harder.
These users must see that we can use another OS for common tasks, just like they must see that using another search engine is possible.
Valve can be this thing, with a proprietary platform, they can bring new GNU/Linux users and these users can be enlightened to the free software principles.
We can't ask the users to change all their way of doing in one day. They will change, but step by step. Telling them that Steam is the evil even on a GNU/Linux OS is not the right way. Telling that it's a good step in the FSF direction is better. Showing them that Steam is also proprietary, that alternatives exists is a better way. Invite them to try other games really free, etc...
What is your thought on it ? Can't we bring more people to the FSF direction by changing our way to deal with some proprietary platform ? It does not involve that we need to see Steam on GNU/Linux as a good thing, but to see it as a first STEP to the FOSS direction : it's all about steps (and there can be many steps), but not a quick change that's just impossible.
Rafi.
I am a translator!
Change is never sudden and it takes time and knowledge. Sometimes all it takes is the awareness that the current way of doing is not the right way. That's how I switched to gnu from windblowz 7 - i had a "fu.k, I can't take this sh.t anymore!" moment - so frustrated I became with that nonsense of an OS.
I switched to gnu because of security mainly, beacuse sec is for me the most important point of any OS.
I distrohopped a lot but never installed proprietary shajt..
I switched to trisquel mainly because of ethical reasons and yes - once again security and privacy. If you have a single tiny proprietary application on your setup: well, it is game over.. How can you know what skype and steam are doing with your data??! Trusting proprietary code is as stupid and unnatural as trusting a man with a mask on his face!
I reckon the "big thing" that may cause people to change their hideous windblowz habit can't be some proprietary program like steam or any program in general - the big thing for me is the harsh reality of the world we live in and the fact that I want to do my computing in freedom without any restriction whatsoever. People have to make a choice - wheter it is more important the convenience, the comfort and going with the crowd or wheter the important things are other things, like freedom and ethics.. For me it is the latter and that's why I never had a facebojk account..
Once you learn the way of the Gnu you won't be coming back because gnu is superior to other OSi in every single aspect - security, performance, stability, reliability, customization, EASE OF USE (yes!) and last but not least, with gnu (100% free software) trisquel, parabola, gnewsense etc etc, you can do something really, really revolutionary, that is, use your computer and not the other thing around (being used by your computer)!! :)
cheers
To cause change you do have to go against the grain. Unless you are a little caustic most will ignore your message.
Telling them that Steam is the evil even on a GNU/Linux OS is not the right way. Telling that it's a good step in the FSF direction is better.
Steam *is* evil. By itself. It is proprietary and, even worse, it implements usage restrictions. You can't tell people about freedom in the digital world and at the same time endorse Steam. It is preposterous.
That said, I agree that Steam on GNU/Linux can drive users to GNU, its philosophy... and the abandonment of Steam by those users!
Rafi,
If I understand correctly, your proposal is that we free software supporters agree to take “Steam” as a step that will (supposedly) help more users to become aware of the problem of proprietary software and chose to switch to a fully free system. If so, then I disagree strongly. However, I'm glad that you're thinking of ways to bring computer freedom to more users, and asking for feedback.
“why not to be to see potentially many users switching from Windows to GNU/Linux systems thanks to Steam ?”
We free software supporters (like the ones you will find in this combined forum/mailing list) aren't interested in having more users for GNU/Linux, but about bringing a *fully free* system for more people. We promote GNU/Linux as a *means* to achieve that goal, not as a goal in itself. This is the official policy of the GNU project and the Free Software Foundation; see <https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#WillYouMakeAnException>. I don't know much about Steam, other than it's a GNU/Linux distribution with the goal of serving as a platform for distributing DRM-encumbered proprietary games. This limited knowledge is enough to tell that it's no better ethically than any other proprietary system.
If people switch from being an *used* of Steam to being an *user* of a fully free operating system such as Trisquel, it's not “thanks” to Steam (as they do nothing to raise awareness of their user rights) but “despite” Steam. Some users of GNU/Linux distributions not committed to computer user rights may eventually find about the GNU project, the Free Software Foundation and the free software philosophy, and eventually adopt the philosophy; that's how some of us (including me) arrived at being free software users and supporters. However, this won't be the case for everybody, and from what I have observed, I'm confident that most Steams useds will never learn to appreciate their rights and hence will not refuse to run software that doesn't respects them such as Steam itself; on the contrary, I think that almost all Steam users will acquainted with them being used from the software developers through their computer.
There's no reason to stop denouncing Steam or any other proprietary system, even if it may non-intentionally lead some people to eventually use a fully free system.
Inviting users to switch gradually to free software is dangerous because it teaches the user to use free software when it's convenient, rather than also when it involves an immediately practical inconvenience (In other words, it's similar to the danger of the open source viewpoint). When raising awareness of the problems with proprietary software, the message must be to avoid it entirely, and that doing so incrementally to eventually avoid proprietary software entirely may be an acceptable compromise.
Don't talk to me about steam ! It's been preventing me to play skyrim for 2 or 3 years, although I own the game on a legal dvd...
I'm now gonna fix it thanks to wine and Gnu/linux.
Steam IS evil. I just think like magic banana.
We have to consider that it could make a lot of gamers (aka not average users who like to have powerful computers) to use gnu/linux and to see how good it is. I consider my gamers friends as very close to use gnu/linux, but they don't as "there's not enough good games"...
that dvd is non-free software
also the fact you own it on a legal dvd is worse as your giving money to the non-free developers
I recognize that Steam *is* evil (because of the DRMs on the games) but I was just wondering how to not antagonize people from FOSS.
I understand all of your args and I agree with it because I have the same relation with proprietary software. But I also know that sometimes, we have to admit that things can't be black or white for people, it can be just grey. But, step by step, we can bring the users from the "dark side" to FOSS.
I agree with SuperTremp when he says "the big thing for me is the harsh reality of the world we live in and the fact that I want to do my computing in freedom without any restriction whatsoever." Yes, it would be so great to see more people having this idea coming in front of them. But I think most people need more time to understand the purpose of the FSF for example.
Now, what marioxcc says it interesting. "We free software supporters aren't interested in having more users for GNU/Linux" This said, I can understand that Steam is and will remain the "evil", and the purpose of not supporting in any type this platform.
I am wondering what's the best option between :
- Having a GNU/Linux OS with Steam to play the games we want
- Having a fully free OS with a console (PS or XBox) to play the game we want (here the point is that PS/Xbox are also proprietary systems)
I already know that the BEST option remain having a fully free OS and play FOSS games. But like our phones, we can't get ride of some proprietary software around us (and it's a shame...)
PS : my phone is not a smartphone, better a stupidphone : Nokia 106 but I'm sure his software is not free
Either a program is free software or it is proprietary software. There usually is no gray area when we talk about one single program. Steam clearly is proprietary. It clearly is *not* "a good step in the FSF direction" (as you wrote).
If you talk about an operating system, then things can be gray. Steam on Trisquel is better than Steam on Windows in the sense that the user always has freedoms except when it uses Steam. Anyway, that is no reason to endorse Steam: Steam by itself is evil.
As marioxcc wrote, a successful transition toward freedom in the digital space almost always is a gradual transition: most of us discovered computing with Windows or Mac (black), started to use some free software there (dark gray), then migrated on GNU/Linux but kept on installing proprietary software such as drivers/firmware (light gray) and finally ended up on Trisquel (white). Acknowledging that going through "gray" almost always is necessary is not aiming for the "gray" state. Total freedom, i.e. control over his/her own life, is the only objective. If we believe in it, we only recommend steps toward freedom.
"But like our phones, we can't get ride of some proprietary software around us"
is the openmoko not free?:
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner
Here's Stallman on steam
@lembas : this is clear :)
In my post, I was talking about one "positive" point revealed by Stallman when he say "bring Windows users to GNU/Linux OS".
Yes, Steam on GNU/Linux means considering first convenience, then freedom. His answer to my previous question is : do not play non free games (so do not have any PS/Xbox, Steam OS or Windows+Steam). This is quite difficult considering the video games as a passion for some of us. But yes, this passion can't be put over our freedom.
It's all about the choice we do.
Thanks to all for your answers. I'm always searching for the "right way" to manage with FOSS and some of my hobby, and still can't deal with it :/ I need more courage to stop playing in order to really put freedom over all.
If you tell us the kinds of games you like, you may receive suggestions for free software games.
I personally do not play much... but I love Hedgewars (Shoppa mode!). :-)
When dealing with ethics there are always difficult decisions to be made. And not making a decision is also making a decision (to not decide).
I think this discussion is pretty similar to the older open source/free software debate. Or to some people saying that since you currently can't have a free BIOS (and various microcodes) on most computers there's no point in trying etc.
Cowardice asks the question, ‘Is it safe?’
Expediency asks the question, ‘Is it politic?’
Vanity asks the question, ‘Is it popular?’
But conscience asks the question, ‘Is it right?’
And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular; but one must take it because it is right.
– Martin Luther King, Jr.
I like this quote, thanks
I play many kinds of games. It can be from Counter Strike (the team play here is very interesting) to Civilization V, or soccer games like FIFA.
I realize that gaming like I consider it today is not compatible with FOSS. What Stallman says into his article is that we need another way of gaming. A new way that will, step by step here again, give us some quality games as today's proprietary games.
I'd like to know what's the position of the FSF regarding game consoles. Can we be in harmony with a fully free computer (running only free softwares, even free games) having a proprietary game console ?
I do the parallel with our phones : using a fully free computer having a proprietary phone is also opposing
There are many free FPSs. For instance, isn't the game play of "Enemy Territory" similar to that of "Counter Strike"? If so, there is this game: http://www.etlegacy.com
As for "Civilization", there is "FreeCiv" as a free alternative. It is in Trisquel's repository and I played it. I believe the game play and graphics are closer to "Civilization II" (that I used to play) than to "Civilization V". The IA however is certainly better: it does not cheat! It can be played online too. And the diplomacy is better (more customizable). And there are borders (as in Civilization III). So, let's say "between Civilization II and III".
Game consoles and smartphones are general-purpose computers. I am pretty sure the FSF would not make any difference.
You're wrong about Freeciv's AI not cheating:
"AI players in Freeciv operate in the server, partly before all clients move, partly afterwards. Unlike the clients, they can observe the full state of the game, including everything about other players. Additionally, Hard AI players can see every game unit even through fog of war.
AI players can change production without penalty and switch governments without going through anarchy. Additionally, Hard AI players can set their research, tax or luxury to 100% regardless of their governments."
Granted, it doesn't cheat much, but it does cheat.
Interesting. I believe I have never played against hard AIs. It was already pretty challenging against normal AIs (to be good at Freeciv, you need to learn the odd of anything, the gain brought by every special land square, the cost of every unit/building, ... and I do not play much!).
As you wrote, it is not much cheating anyway, especially when comparing with Civilization II (where a city under attack could apparently produce a new unit at every turn!).
I don't recall seeing game consoles addressed directly in the GNU project or FSF page, however, game consoles and “smart phones” are computers, so the same thing applies for them than to desktop and laptop computers. Furthermore, cell phones are the center of some user communications, so the problems with proprietary software are exacerbated (The developers and service providers can use the truckloads of data they collect about you against you). Maybe we should start using the term “pocket computer with phone” to describe “smart phones”, since that paves part of the way to make people aware of how much control they're giving to whatever controls those devices, which is not the “user” (More of an “used”).
The situation with game consoles is the same. If they run only manufacturer-authorized software, with a legal threat against reverse engineering and circumventing the manufacturer restrictions then they're clearly computers disloyal to the customer <https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/loyal-computers.html>. I wouldn't use a product whose purpose is to fool me into thinking that I'm being given something while it actually serves only its manufacturer, let alone PAY for that.
It's sad to see that disloyal computers are becoming more and more prevalent, and it's much worser than people don't care about, and sometimes even sympathize emotionally with the ones that bring them these anti-services.
>Can we be in harmony with a fully free computer (running only free softwares, even free games) having a proprietary game console ?
I don't think so. There isn't much difference between running proprietary software in your main computer than in a computer dedicated for gaming, regarding your (lack of) rights as computer user. There are practical differences, but discussing what's the best way to run proprietary software doesn't belongs to this forum.
It's good that you're aware of the problem and are trying to do something against it. I of course, suggest to avoid proprietary games altogether. If despite the reasons you know, the ones we're explaining, the ones you can find in the GNU essays, and the free alternatives to proprietary games that you can find (For instance, see <https://libregamewiki.org/>) or develop/help to develop yourself you're going to play proprietary games anyway, I suggest that you do so in a way that gives the least money to the developers of it, so as to minimize their power, since they have demonstrated they use it to serve themselves before serving their clients.
For example playing more indie games bought on GOG.com instead of Steam I guess. I think it can be a first step for me to come closer of the FOSS philosophy with gaming
I guess this thread might be somewhat related and I think interesting https://trisquel.info/en/forum/some-blobs-more-equal-others
A similar and related question is whether art, music, etc should be free and what that exactly means.
0ad is my favrote libre game (a real time statagy game)
http://play0ad.com/
for fps's openarena is very fun and uses the quake engine
theres also freedoom which uses the doom engine and i think supports multiplayer
neverball is a very fun supermonkey ball like game
also if you like doodle jump theres gnu jump
chromium B.S.U is a good space ship shooter
tux racer is a good mario cart clone
and extream tux racer is just rely fun
supertux 1 and 2 are good mario style games with many levels
tuxfootball is a good football(soccer in the usa) game
and there are many more that you can find in your package managers/software center
or at this site:
https://libregamewiki.org/Main_Page
enjoy the games!
btw as you like civlisation i highly reccomend you try 0ad
but try to get the latest version alpha 17 as the one in trisquels repos in alpha 15
Freedoom is just a WAD, so it doesn't "support multiplayer" in any meaningful sense. At least one libre Doom engine that works with Freedoom does, though: Odamex.
Personally, I like Xonotic better OpenArena.
06-01-2015 02:18:42 name at domain:
> Freedoom is just a WAD, so it doesn't "support
multiplayer" in any
> meaningful sense. At least one Doom engine that works
with Freedoom does,
> though: Odamex.
>
> Personally, I like Xonotic better OpenArena.
I like to play Freedoom using Doomsday. It doesn't support
many mods (PWADs), besides, I must find I way to make
Doomsday recognize Freedoom as game by itself (IWAD)
rather than a Doom mod (PWAD), that is, there must be a
way not to depend on the non-free Doom game.
Past versions of Doomsday (that included in Trisquel
repositories, for instance) don't need the Doom IWAD, as
they can somehow run Freedoom as IWAD. But if you die
in multiplayer, you can't respawn, even if the server forces
you to be respawned.
Version 1.14.5 of Doomsday seems to recognize Freedoom
just as a PWAD. However, you're not stuck if you die in
multiplayer. Although I don't know how many past versions
have this limitation.
When I have the time to, I'll try to backtrack Doomsday
stable releases and do some version bisecting. And no, I'm
not a skilled programmer, nor a Git user, I just searched this
term right now, but I have seem some people use this term a
long time ago.
Respectfully, Adonay.
Have a nice day.
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Tux racer isn't a Mario kart clone; it's the original extreme tux faced before it got abandoned and forked 2 times. You were thinking about SuperTuxKart (you should try its beta version which has improved graphics, but it might fail with drivers like nouveau)
its pretty insany, if I search (on duckduckgo) for libregames, that libregamewiki doesn't show up, only some crap Philippine sinkhole shows up!
Some great Free Software games for you:
-Red Eclipse (Like 'Halo')
-0AD (Like 'Civ5')
-Urban Terror (Like 'CS')
Modern game consoles are just computers that hook up to televisions.
If it has software updates, it's a computer. That's what separates a toaster and a desktop. I actually use my spare laptop as a game console of sorts- I pull out a controller and use it to watch Popcorn Time or play some Red Eclipse.
05-01-2015 23:05:51 name at domain:
> I play many kinds of games. It can be from Counter Strike
(the team play
> here is very interesting) to Civilization V, or soccer games
like FIFA.
>
> I realize that gaming like I consider it today is not
compatible with FOSS.
> What Stallman says into his article is that we need another
way of gaming. A
> new way that will, step by step here again, give us some
quality games as
> today's proprietary games.
>
> I'd like to know what's the position of the FSF regarding
game consoles. Can
> we be in harmony with a fully free computer (running only
free softwares,
> even free games) having a proprietary game console ?
> I do the parallel with our phones : using a fully free
computer having a
> proprietary phone is also opposing
Well, regarding FSF's position on gaming consoles/video
games, just like me right now, you might as well be shocked
to read the last item in this link:
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/proprietary-jails.html
I'm shocked because I just bought a gaming console last
month, thinking that I could use it without compromissing
my freedom, And I'm still paying for it...
Man, I swear, if I make any other mistake like this again... ...
I don't even want to write what I could do...
Even worse, my parents won't allow me to return or sell it...
Man, I'm so unlucky...
Someone really needs to make a free gaming console. I'm
tired of being victim of this issue.
Besides, there is that 25% tax that must be paid when the
product arrives, and the risk of having the product
aprehended/blocked during import. I shouldn't have born in
Brazil. I think I'm going crazy... ...
Respectfully, Adonay.
Have a nice day.
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1.) Make game engine free software as one download under LGPL 3 or MPL 2.0.
2.) Offer copyrighted/trademarked art and multimedia as a separate paid download.
You keep the code free, yet compensate the developer with the 2nd download. Both are required to play the game and appease to all camps.
I am a translator!
oh jeez do i miss half life 2 !!!
Used to play a lot for some time a few years ago and I really miss some games - I mean, when something is as good as hl (both 1 and 2) how can you not miss it? :)
But I wanna stick with free software and I have emulators if I want to play some oldskuul!
free games are: few, not as good and sometimes plain boring or technically horrible.
There are some exceptions:
openarena, nexuiz, frozen bubble, hedgewars, pingus and scorched3d (a lot of fun with this one and a bunch of friends)
p.s - they are waiting for you Gordon .. in the test chamber!
:)
If your friends are high/drunk, Neverputt (in Trisquel's repository) is a lot of fun too! :-)
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they are not..usually :)
i'll check it out. heard about it but never played
cheers
I am a translator!
neverputt is a great little game! very funny and the ball physics is very good
thx banana magique!
Also supertux2, supertuxkart, enigma, extreme-tux-racer
And how do you deal with it ? (phones)
It seems that here (in this forum and the general Trisquel community) are uncompromising about FOSS into computers. WHat are your phones, do they need to run proprietary softwares ?
Thanks for the games alternatives, I'll check it ! I think in the end, I have to stop playing video games if I want to be in agreement with my opinions. (and I also have to get ride of my phone !)
i think that the openmoko only runs free software(please correct me if i am wrong!)
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page
I use a Samsung GS2 with Replicant on it.
Problem solved :)
Well, let's deep dive into this question. Do you receive your internet connection via a Wireless gateway that runs some proprietary code ?
My point is to see how deep we can go with the FSF principle, sorry if I seem annoying with my questions :/
If the server that your ISP uses has non-free software, that doesn't really effect your freedom. It may harm the ISP's freedom, and perhaps your privacy, but it doesn't really effect you.
It's their choice what they run on their servers, it doesn't really effect the user's freedom. (Although privacy can come into question.)
I am a member!
I believe that OP was asking about the local gateway/router, not the ISP's servers.
It's a tricky issue for sure. I've tried to minimise the amount of non-free firmware/software I use in this regard by eliminating the router all together, and using a "dumb" ADSL2+ bridge modem connected directly to my server, which runs free software (Debian actually). My Debian server acts as a router and also has a freedom-compatible WiFi PCIe card in it that allows it to act as a WiFi base station. It also has 2 NICs, so one is connected to the modem in PPPoE mode, and the other is connected to a layer-2 switch.
There's still the issue of the non-free firmware in the modem, which is a problem. However I don't know of a solution to this. There's also no free bios currently available for any of my hardware.
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I have an old mobo and I never use it. except when it is absolutely necessary. I keep the bat out of it and turn it on only when I need to use it.. I leave it at home mostly.
And this is not because I do anything illegal or need to hide something. It is because I know mobos are tracking devices and I don't want to be tracked in no circumstances and by anyone for any reason!!
This tendency states and govns and corps have to track,spy and register and archive everything about everyone is in my eyes the greatest danger "democracy" has ever challenged and this very same tendency is something I feel very disgusted with and will never accept nor justify under any circumstance. It is in my opinion the cancer of the century and a pretty big and fast-growing one too :(
I agree with you about the tracking problem with all of our connected devices (connected to either cellular or internet network)
You can't say one thing and then do the other.
If you take the stance of the "Open-Source" fence-sitters, who say "It's great if it's 'open-source', but it's alright if it's proprietary- in an ideal world, though, all software would be open."
If you take that position, nothing will change, and proprietary software will continue to dominate the Free Software movement.
It's hypocritical to champion freedom and then tell users that Steam's alright.
I'm reminded of Mozilla's hypocrisy about the HTML5 DRM- they always champion an 'open web', then do the opposite.
"You can't say one thing and then do the other."
If you're using a Samsung GS2 don't you do this exact nonsense ? (Proprietary firmeware, even with Replicant).
Maybe phones are same as game consoles, if we really want to follow the FOSS principles, the best solution is to not use it.
My laptop (From ThinkPenguin!) has proprietary firmware and BIOS. It's pretty much impossible to escape proprietary firmware, although a little easier to escape proprietary BIOS, as Libreboot works with a few laptops.
Even if I chucked my phone out the window I'd still be using proprietary firmware on my PC- firmware is one of the compromises that I, and all computer users here, currently have to make.
(And yes, phones are like game consoles in the sense that both are computers that connect to the internet with system updates.)
I think FSF principles are too strict for me, in any case for now...
I feel uncomfortable trying to get ride of ALL proprietary softwares around me in one go.
The first step I want to realize is to migrate fully to a FOSS OS -why not Trisquel or another one- and play games on it (and get ride of any Windows copy at home).
I'll support FOSS the more I can, with donation to french charity defending our digital rights (and citizen rights) like "La quadrature du net" and promoting FOSS to my entourage.
I have some more steps in front of me, and I want to move on with pleasure as I love FOSS and human freedom.
Thanks to all for your answers and thought, really.
I am a member!
While I can't agree with a decision to continue using non-free software, I can certainly understand it. This sort of compromise shouldn't be encouraged as a solution, but if you're resolved to continue to strive to eliminate proprietery software from your use when you feel you can, then on balance I think your transition to Trisquel is a positive step in the right direction, even if you do continue to play non-free games on it, which of course no free software advocate can condone.
Well done on migrating to Trisquel! In time, you might learn to live without your non-free games.