Librebox (with Coreboot) - Hello Again
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Hi Everyone,
My name is Luis Da Costa and I'm the CEO of a Portuguese startup company, free software oriented, called Libretrend. I'm also a Trisquel member for over 6 years.
I started here as a student interested in Free Software, then I launched the first Librebox in 2014 which was free software friendly (meaning that it wouldn't include any hardware that would require blobs to run on the Operating System).
We are back (yes, we, because now we are a team of 5). In almost 3 years we listened to everything you guys said, and we learned.. a lot! This is why we wouldn't make the same mistake, of releasing a proprietary BIOS, again.
So here we are, presenting the new Librebox: "The most powerful - out-of-factory - computer with Coreboot".
The new Librebox was presented officially at the Open Source Lisbon 2018 (here in Portugal) and will be presented again with a TPM update at the Web Summit 2018 (Lisbon).
Thank you for your time, and sorry for those to whom this post sounded way to much like an ad. It's my way of saying thank you for all of you, to the community and to Free Software in general. Trisquel was what made me try and stick with Free Software, understand the importance of it, and drove my life to only one goal: "Build the most powerful, and libre hardware and software in the world".
Website:
https://libretrend.com
PS: Like in 2014, I am giving a special discount to everyone from the Trisquel Community (valable to a limited time) for a total of 100€: FSF18
Related Trisquel Posts:
Free Software from a Student POV: https://trisquel.info/en/forum/just-question-all-free-software-users-student
Libretrend - My vision of Free Software: https://trisquel.info/en/forum/libretrend-my-vision-free-software
Partnership and Media Coverage: https://trisquel.info/en/forum/librebox-small-computer
Libretrend at the Evento Linux 2014: https://trisquel.info/en/forum/libretrend-will-be-evento-linux-2014-25th-sept-lisbon-portugal
This is why we wouldn't make the same mistake, of releasing a proprietary BIOS, again.
Are you aware that coreboot integrates the so-called "Firmware Support Package"? The Libreboot FAQ says that "the proprietary FSP blob cannot be trusted at all": https://libreboot.org/faq.html#fsp
Coreboot distributes proprietary microcode too: https://libreboot.org/faq.html#microcode
And, then, there is the Management Engine...
You basically cannot get both performance and freedom with Intel. In my humble opinion, it would be better to be honest about the compromises made in terms of freedom to get performances.
We will be updating our website in order to make anyone understand what's still not free on our devices, but in the meantime we supply the firmware with cleaned ME and the list of not-yet-freed-pieces is the following: ME, FSP, microcode, VGAROM, VBT (Video Bios Table), xHCI.
We are working on having it freed. We are also working on having FWUPD support in order for our firmware to be updated in a fastest and more simple way. This allows us to have some time to free things and let everyone know when something has been freed and/or improved.
I am a translator!
Not all coreboot features are necessarily malicious, e.g. the proprietary VGA option ROM which supports more laptop monitors than the free libreboot native graphics implementation.
I am not claiming that every blob in coreboot is malicious. As usual with proprietary software: maybe it is, maybe it is not, and you are not allowed to know. That does not inspire confidence...
I am a translator!
There's quite a lot of proprietary code being run by libreboot such as CPU microcode (without updates), EC firmware, SSD/HDD firmware etc. Whenever they find a free replacement they use it, but the computer is far from 100 percent free when using libreboot.
> Not all coreboot features are necessarily malicious
But some of them may be, and without freedom 1 there is no way to check. Also, while proprietary software is often malicious, the fact that it is non-free is enough of a reason not to use it. It is wrong for the developer to have power over the user, even if the developer has not yet abused that power.
> e.g. the proprietary VGA option ROM which supports more laptop monitors than the free libreboot native graphics implementation.
Linux supports more hardware than Linux-libre. Chrome supports more websites than Icecat. Spotify supports more music than LibreFM. The problem is not with Linux-libre, Icecat, LibreFM, or Libreboot. The problem is with the hardware that does not work without non-free blobs, the websites that don't work without non-free JS or Flash, and the music than can not be legally shared in a freedom-respecting way.
There's such a thing as a strategic compromise. If someone has a computer that does not support libreboot but does support coreboot, has the means to install coreboot, and cannot afford a new computer at this time, then installing coreboot is better than continuing to use the proprietary BIOS. If someone has a laptop whose WiFi card requires proprietary firmware, and if they cannot afford a USB dongle at this time, then installing the proprietary firmware onto an otherwise free system is better than using a completely proprietary system. However, these are temporary measures only appropriate when absolutely necessary. If someone has the means to buy a new computer or can afford a USB dongle, then the freedom compromise is not a strategic one because it is unnecessary.
> There's quite a lot of proprietary code being run by libreboot such as CPU microcode (without updates), EC firmware, SSD/HDD firmware etc. Whenever they find a free replacement they use it, but the computer is far from 100 percent free when using libreboot.
True, and this is a real problem that has yet to be solved. However, these are temporary measures, only appropriate because they are now necessary. Proprietary EC firmware is currently necessary because a free replacement does not exist. coreboot is not necessary because libreboot exists. Unnecessary compromises are steps backward with no strategic value. Using coreboot instead of libreboot will not give us free SSD firmware.
> You basically cannot get both performance and freedom with Intel. In my humble opinion, it would be better to be honest about the compromises made in terms of freedom to get performances.
I agree. If people are deceived into thinking that there is a path to freedom with Intel machines, they will not understand why it is important to support efforts to explore non-x86 architectures. Also, compromising performance for freedom sends a message that freedom is important, which normalizes caring. Conversely, compromising freedom for performance sends a message that having shiny new things is important, which normalizes complacency.
I think it's also important to point out that, in general, only Windows and macOS users benefit from having the newest hardware. Operating systems like Trisquel aren't bloated enough to require the newest hardware.
There are applications where performances are essential. I do use my 16 GB of RAM to run some of my research prototypes. In that regard, Libretrend is appealing to me even if it is worse that Libreboot computers from a freedom perspective. More commonly (I guess), I was told that server isolation in virtual machines is not efficient with older processors (some special circuits are only found in i5+ processors).
I only suggested Libretrend to be more honest, acknowledging here and on their website that coreboot is not 100% free software. Additionally I invite Libretrend to point to https://libreboot.org/suppliers.html for users who want more freedom and need not as much performance. For bonus points, Libretrend could also fight against the additional proprietary software it ships along coreboot (trying to convince manufacturers or dedicating part of the benefits to pay a developer to reverse-engineer).
> There are applications where performances are essential.
For sure, which is what I meant by "in general." However, I talk to many
ordinary desktop users who base their decisions not on the requirements
of specific applications but on "old=bad, new=good" and purchase laptops
with 16 GB that they then use for basic web browsing and document
editing. I think this attitude might be a result of Wirth's Law, as
newer versions of Windows and macOS are quite resource intensive. I
recently put Trisquel on a friend's Macbook. Running macOS, he was
sitting at using around 6 of his 8 GB and was constantly running out of
disk space. Since using Trisquel, he rarely uses more than 2 GB and has
plenty of disk space.
> I only suggested Libretrend to be more honest, acknowledging
> here and on their website that Coreboot is not 100% free software.
Technoethical is a good model for how to distribute software/hardware with
freedom issues in a transparent and responsible way. For example, this
page[1] states the freedom issues with the phone very visibly and leaves
the customer to decide whether or not they are acceptable. It would be
difficult for someone to accidentally buy the phone without realizing
that it has a non-free modem and bootloader.
> If
> Libretrend can fight against that problem (trying to convince manufacturers
> or dedicating part of the benefits to pay a developer to reverse-engineer),
> that would be even better...
ThinkPenguin sells laptops with a proprietary BIOS (alongside other more
freedom-respecting products), but they put some of that money toward
advancing the cause of free software. I believe that they sponsor
EOMA68. Meeting the needs of users who have to compromise on freedom for
now while contributing toward a long-term solution is a great approach.
> Linux supports more hardware than Linux-libre. Chrome supports more websites than Icecat. Spotify supports more music than LibreFM. The problem is not with Linux-libre, Icecat, LibreFM, or Libreboot. The problem is with the hardware that does not work without non-free blobs, the websites that don't work without non-free JS or Flash, and the music than can not be legally shared in a freedom-respecting way.
Let these words be carved in stone...
I am a translator!
True, and this is a real problem that has yet to be solved. However, these are temporary measures, only appropriate because they are now necessary. Proprietary EC firmware is currently necessary because a free replacement does not exist. coreboot is not necessary because libreboot exists. Unnecessary compromises are steps backward with no strategic value. Using coreboot instead of libreboot will not give us free SSD firmware.
The free replacement to VGA option ROM only works if you are using a supported laptop panel. If you wish to use the (in my case T60) laptop without a panel at all but with an external monitor instead it will not work properly.
Libreboot should focus on such setups, as old laptop panels are no longer in production, so instead of looking for replacement panels of sub-par quality it is preferable to simply connect the old laptops to an external monitor when the laptop's panel becomes defective.
Free EC firmware exists for the supported ARM laptop but not for X86 laptops.
hey there :)
nice effort, though I just have to say one thing:
I took one glance at the website for libretrend and saw: "core i7"
Which means that these systems are proprietary, and not libre at all. They come with the Intel Management Engine out of the box:
https://libreboot.org/faq.html#intelme
Furthermore, coreboot these days doesn't actually have source code. Most of the hardware initialization is handled by binary blobs.
These libretrend systems are *not* libreboot-compatible.
I say these things only for those people who wish to have an entirely libre system. For people who don't care and just want coreboot (regardless of blobs) and a free OS, then libretrend is OK. But know what you are buying!
If you want a fully libre system, FSF-endorsed, with libreboot preinstalled, then buy from one of these companies:
I never trust credit cards due to their nature always led to your debts, so are there any payments in Bitcoins to order machines from your LibreTrend?
You don't need a credit card to use credit card payment systems. You can use a debit card, which only allows you to spend money you already have. But yes, it would be good if Libretrend can accept payment in crypto-tokens, for those who don't want to share their purchase data with banks and credit card companies, and anyone else they sell bundles of customer data to.
Hi Luis, thanks for the work you have done on creating another Windows-free laptop option. I have contacted Olivier from LinuxPreloaded.com to see if Libretrend can be added to his list of companies that supply Windows-free hardware to end users.
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