Mailing List versus "Forum" ?
I usually participate the Trisquel mailing list via "forum". Since all this double posts reading inside the "forum" have become quite annoying.
Also replies to replies often become a mess if a "post" has lots of replies or only some lengthy posts. I guess this is mainly because the references between answer and answers answer.
Are there chances that Trisquel provides a "true" forum ?
What do you think ?
TIA,
Holger
I am a member!
I would welcome a 'true' forum.
I never really got the advantages of the mailing lists; for some reason are popular with free software projects all thou, as far as I know, this is the only one that actually has some activity and maybe libreplanet-discuss but is not comparable.
AIUI the split threads etc. in the fora are because of the software's spam
handling. Personally I mostly use the mailing list but would agree that from
either view (mailing list or fora) we need to improve the software. E.g.
links in a forum post don't appear in the mailing version.
A mailing list is so 1997 and were soon replaced by CGI and PHP based forums
in the late 90s. The Trisquel team should pick one or the other because the
current system isn't working and we would be better served by a pure forum
solution only.
I've implemented this same forum software (Drupal's Advanced Forum
module) before and I never liked it. IMO there is only one good reason
to use it and that is when you need really tight integration with the
rest of the website and existing workflows. Specifically, when you
already have a Drupal website and you want to integrate a forum with the
existing users. At the time of Drupal 6 there were some modules that
allowed you to integrate external forums, like phpBB, but I've had
stability issues with those. However, it still sidesteps the question of
whether we really need the forum to be directly integrated into the
project's website software. In Trisquel's case, I am still unsure. We
are not a very big community yet, so having everything in one place
makes everything look more alive but in the long term it will be better
to separate things.
It is clear that the Forum-Mailing List integration isn't working
properly. There seems to be more issues on the Forum side. I am not sure
if quidam has investigated the problems but at the moment the situation
looks unprofessional.
As a general observation, I think developers (or developer-minded users)
are more likely to use mailing lists and IRC whereas the average,
non-developer user will prefer a forum. This is not always the case,
like if you have specific accessibility requirements, but I think it is
a fair generalisation.
At the hand of that observation I would suggest that we have both a
forum and mailing lists but that they should be broken apart and be
completely separate. I think the Ubuntu model could work. If we have a
user-maintained forum then we can use dedicated forum software that
still supports email subscription (for those who prefer/need it), but it
will also relieve quidam of needing to maintain the forum software. It
could be something like trisquelforums.org or trisqueltalks.org or even
just forums.trisquel.org pointing to another server.
We can then use dedicated mailing lists for development and related
purposes only. These would be maintained by the core Trisquel team.
It is a good idea that this topic was brought up again. Like I mentioned
before, Trisquel 6.0 is going to be a big landmark release and we need
to have the web presence to match it.
--
Morne Alberts
On 05/05/2012 15:29, Morne Alberts wrote:
> [...]
>
> As a general observation, I think developers (or developer-minded users)
> are more likely to use mailing lists and IRC whereas the average,
> non-developer user will prefer a forum. This is not always the case,
> like if you have specific accessibility requirements, but I think it is
> a fair generalisation.
That's my impression too.
I do prefer mailing-list, but many people around me don't really know
what it is and are not attracted or curious about it and prefer to find
their way out of fora, which is good by the way.
This is here on the Trisquel list that I discovered the possibility of
mailing-list and forum integration, which I find a good option to merge
both worlds and bring people liking different approaches to communicate.
I started to look after a solution for my own and, aside Drupal, I
remember I found FUDForum which is a standalone forum providing Usenet
and mailing-list integration : http://cvs.prohost.org/index.php
I don't know how good it acts, but this might be interesting to look at it.
I intend to give it a try, but had no time for that yet. I should be
able to do it for summer time.
If you have not made a choice by that time, I'll give you my feedback
about it !
Regards,
Christophe
AIUI the split threads etc. in the fora are because of the software's spam handling. Personally I mostly use the mailing list but would agree that from either view (mailing list or fora) we need to improve the software. E.g. links in a forum post don't appear in the mailing version.
I am a member!
I prefer the mailing list, but no matter which one uses (forum or
mailing list), the content should be same. I've noticed that links and
possible quoted text, posted to the forum, don't make it to the list.
Not sure what issues there from list to forum.
-Dave H.
On 05/04/2012 12:43 PM, name at domain wrote:
> AIUI the split threads etc. in the fora are because of the software's
> spam handling. Personally I mostly use the mailing list but would
> agree that from either view (mailing list or fora) we need to improve
> the software. E.g. links in a forum post don't appear in the mailing
> version.
A mailing list is so 1997 and were soon replaced by CGI and PHP based forums in the late 90s. The Trisquel team should pick one or the other because the current system isn't working and we would be better served by a pure forum solution only.
В 06:09 +0200 на 05.05.2012 (сб), name at domain написа:
> A mailing list is so 1997 and were soon replaced by CGI and PHP based forums
> in the late 90s.
Ughm, and so what?! We should be jumping hysterically around new(er)
trends in online collaborative communication and use them, just because
they are the newest popular thing? Mail just works.
> and we would be better served by a pure forum
> solution only.
No we wouldn't. Mail is convenient for some people, including me. A web
forum is awkward and inconvenient. Mail is delivered to me automatically
and I can read it whenever I can. A web forum I have to go to and check
regularly. It is better for me to use a single, comfortable interface
that is my mail client and I'm used to, than some text area / box in a
browser, that can't save a draft and I might loose what I've written so
far if the browser crashes (happens). I guess it is pretty much the same
for everybody who uses the mailing list.
Use the forum if it suits you, but my opinion is that mail (and mailing
lists) are proven and useful technology that Trisquel should keep using.
@ivaylo: Why such a harsh reaction ?
>Mail just works.
So does a forum ! Both things are different ways of communication.
Mailing list are still a valid option and often used in big software projects. The same goes for IRC or newsgroups.
I simply wanted to highlight that the current situation is less than optimal. If the "forum" is another representation of the mailing list then it should work the same way and present stuff the same way (e.g. Hyperlinks, Quoted text and so on). If this does not work then the forum should be fixed or dropped (if fixing is not possible).
A forum can be a powerful communication platform. Simply check out doom9 or archlinux. If you prefer one or the other is simply a personal point of view.
>No we wouldn't.
I dislike the we in this sentence. On such topic there is no "we" as everyone might have his preferred option.
>Mail is convenient for some people, including me.
>A web forum is awkward and inconvenient.
Following the same argumentation approach that you chose I could also say a mailing list is awkward.
>A web forum I have to go to and check regularly
This is simply not true and depends on the forum software used. You can configure it to send you notifications on each topic you posted on a timely base (instantly, each day, whatever). Those notification include often enough the message posting. I would even bet you can extend a forum that you simply reply to a topic to send a mail.
In the end it would be interesting for me what we as Trisquel users can do to ensure that the mail list list works as fine as the forum ?
If solving those issues is not possible then I would rather suggest to shut down the "forum" representation of the mailing list and simply store the mailing list in a typical archive as many other projects do.
В 13:49 +0200 на 05.05.2012 (сб), name at domain написа:
> @ivaylo: Why such a harsh reaction ?
I got irritated by the "mailing lists are old, lets ditch them"
attitude. My reply was not directed at you. Might have been a little
strong. Text lack accurate intonation representation, so it might seem
stronger than I intended.
> I simply wanted to highlight that the current situation is less than optimal.
I agree that it is not optimal, but again my response was not directed
at you.
> If the "forum" is another representation of the mailing list then it should
> work the same way and present stuff the same way (e.g. Hyperlinks, Quoted
> text and so on). If this does not work then the forum should be fixed or
> dropped (if fixing is not possible).
+1
> >No we wouldn't.
> I dislike the we in this sentence. On such topic there is no "we" as everyone
> might have his preferred option.
It was a response to "we would be fine without a mailing list". That is
why the "we".
>
> >A web forum I have to go to and check regularly
> This is simply not true and depends on the forum software used. You can
> configure it to send you notifications on each topic you posted on a timely
> base (instantly, each day, whatever). Those notification include often enough
> the message posting. I would even bet you can extend a forum that you simply
> reply to a topic to send a mail.
Yes, I'm aware of that, but this is still inconvenient in my opinion. I
still have to go to the web, login and post. Forums just can't work by
themselves and be convenient, they need helpers. In this example mail.
>Mail just works.
So does a forum ! Both things are different ways of communication.
Mailing list are still a valid option and often used in big software
projects. The same goes for IRC or newsgroups.
I simply wanted to highlight that the current situation is less than optimal.
If the "forum" is another representation of the mailing list then it should
work the same way and present stuff the same way (e.g. Hyperlinks, Quoted
text and so on). If this does not work then the forum should be fixed or
dropped (if fixing is not possible).
A forum can be a powerful communication platform. Simply check out doom9 or
archlinux. If you prefer one or the other is simply a personal point of view.
>No we wouldn't.
I dislike the we in this sentence. On such topic there is no "we" as everyone
might have his preferred option.
>Mail is convenient for some people, including me.
>A web forum is awkward and inconvenient.
Following the same argumentation approach that you chose I could also say a
mailing list is awkward.
>A web forum I have to go to and check regularly
This is simply not true and depends on the forum software used. You can
configure it to send you notifications on each topic you posted on a timely
base (instantly, each day, whatever). Those notification include often enough
the message posting. I would even bet you can extend a forum that you simply
reply to a topic to send a mail.
In the end it would be interesting for me what we as Trisquel users can do to
ensure that the mail list list works as fine as the forum ?
If solving those issues is not possible then I would rather suggest to shut
down the "forum" representation of the mailing list and simply store the
mailing list in a typical archive as many other projects do.
avalylo - I don't know what time machine you came out of, but a PHP based forum isn't some newly fangled and cutting edge software. Next you will tell us to get off your lawn. :-)
В 17:03 +0200 на 05.05.2012 (сб), name at domain написа:
> bit a PHP based forum isn't some newly fangled and cutting edge software.
I know. It was a response in general in the context of *new*, *newer*
and *newest* technology, and using it just because it is *newer*. Not
cutting edge at the moment. That is what I got from your message -
forums replaced mailing list & mailing lists are old. You mentioned no
benefits that forums brought. In my opinion there are none. Also, I
nowhere mentioned PHP.
> Next you will tell us to get
> off your lawn. :-)
In my country lawns in front houses are rare, I don't have one and I'm
not some old weirdo. ;)
.