Mozilla is going to sell users data...
https://github.com/mozilla/bedrock/commit/d459addab846d8144b61939b7f4310eb80c5470e
https://github.com/mozilla/bedrock/commit/d459addab846d8144b61939b7f4310eb80c5470e#commitcomment-153095625
"Mozilla doesn’t sell data about you (in the way that most people think about “selling data“), and we don’t buy data about you. Since we strive for transparency, and the LEGAL definition of “sale of data“ is extremely broad in some places, we’ve had to step back from making the definitive statements you know and love. We still put a lot of work into making sure that the data that we share with our partners (which we need to do to make Firefox commercially viable) is stripped of any identifying information, or shared only in the aggregate, or is put through our privacy preserving technologies (like OHTTP)."
Anyway, I'm going to delete any Mozilla URL in about:config, block Mozilla domains with a hosts file and so on in my Firefox-based-browsers (Iceweasel and Librewolf)
It's a shame...
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I'm unable to edit my post.
It is done... (see attachment)
https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/faq/

So Mozilla broke their promise?
"When the ice cat returns to the Trisquel repo bag of auld, the sun will shine at the hilltop and many will rejoice and there will be great feats, singing and dancing, and sane browsing" -- anonymous portent.
See also https://trisquel.info/en/forum/remove-fpn-exceptions-abrowser-settings-again#comment-178196.
Don't you worry, it gets worse (it constantly gets worse with Mozilla Firefox): ( https://www.mozilla.org/about/legal/terms/firefox/ (or web.archive.org/web/https://www.mozilla.org/about/legal/terms/firefox/ if it gives a crappy captcha)):
> Mozilla can suspend or end anyone’s access to Firefox at any time for any reason, including if Mozilla decides not to offer Firefox anymore.
This seems highly illegal (unless trademark law has gotten restrictive enough that it can be used for such evil purposes) and is highly unethical as it tries to make Firefox even more proprietary than it already is, conflicting with the terms of copyleft license used on Firefox source code. How long until they add a backdoor to Mozilla Firefox so they can enforce the "Mozilla can suspend or end anyone’s access to Firefox at any time for any reason"?
> "Mozilla doesn’t sell data about you (in the way that most people think about “selling data“)"
> the data that we share[1] with our partners (which we need to do to make Firefox commercially viable)
So "sharing"[1] data for commercial purposes is not selling?
Might as well call it Firepox, because their disregard for ethics is a disease
[1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#SharingPersonalData
I'm glad we have Abrowser and Trisquel so as to sidestep this whole mess.
It has been a long time since I used Abrowser on Trisquel but I remember that it also made some connections to Mozilla. These can be seen in about:networking and if I recall correctly were:
shavar.services.mozilla.com
push.services.mozilla.com
addons.mozilla.com, services.addons.mozilla.com and so on.
location.services.mozilla.com
Among others.
Who knows if they could sell even these info about us? Our IP, the addons we use, the time that the browser is used...
>"It has been a long time since I used Abrowser on Trisquel but I remember that it also made some connections to Mozilla. These can be seen in about:networking and if I recall correctly were:
>shavar.services.mozilla.com
>push.services.mozilla.com
>addons.mozilla.com, services.addons.mozilla.com and so on.
>location.services.mozilla.com
>Among others.
>Who knows if they could sell even these info about us? Our IP, the addons we use, the time that the browser is used..."
I don't see any such connecions in about:networking with Abrowser. Those are common connections that are made on Firefox though. I think you are confusing the two browsers - Abrowser is compiled by Trisquel's devs for greater privacy than stock Firefox.
Hi guys, bad news uh? No wonder...Sneakzilla...
I installed Trisquel on a MacBook 14,3 (had to borrow some driver from Ubuntu) and I was thrilled to try Abrowser for the first time.
I was though disappointed in seeing that Abrowser sends data to sneakzilla at first use. Why is that? Is there some sort of agreement with sneakzilla or law enforcement? This should be clear IMHO.
I detected it because i always run things for the first time in proxychains, and i saw what i saw.
Funny fact: after that i wanted to reproduce it so i removed the folder ~/mozilla/abrowser and try restarting Abrowser, but it did not happen again...
Is this by design? Are you aware of this?
I did not detect further transmission to mozilla since, but, for one reason or another, the trust is broken and i will stick to Icecat and Debian.
Chip
Do you remember the connections?
This could be fine in order to improve Abrowser privacy.
On the other hand, andyprough didn't find anything.
Could the browser only make connections the first time it's opened?
>Could the browser only make connections the first time it's opened?
That's what i thought, I'll try to reproduce it and let you know.
Unfortunately i can't recall which domain/url it was.
Chip
> I detected it because i always run things for the first time in proxychains
I did not use proxychains before. Does it provide a log of all connections? Is it easier than checking using wireshark? Asking because I am interested to try and check.
yes it shows dns requests and connections.
There are other, better ways to run these checks but they require some preparation like network namespaces or mitmproxy.
Again proxychains is ok just for a quick check.
Chip
>"the trust is broken and i will stick to Icecat and Debian"
Well, Chip, seeing as how you are literally the developer that puts out all the IceCat binaries, why don't you take it up directly with Ruben rather than acting like an unbiased user in our forum? As you are well aware, Ruben works on both IceCat and Abrowser. It would seem as though the IceCat mailing list would be a better venue for discussing these between developers.
Oh sorry i was indeed overacting.
Of course i like Trisquel very much, I'm using it right now to watch star trek.
Chip
Hello friends! Regarding this matter, what do you think about the Falkon browser? Which Trisquel repository browser do you think respects our privacy these days?
Falkon uses QtWebEngine which is based on Chromium but strips out the parts that talk to Google servers. It also doesn't include unrar, the one nonfree component of Chromium. So it is not a bad option. However, from what I understand there is no security support for QtWebEngine in Trisquel (this is not Trisquel's fault, Ubuntu and Debian don't provide security support for it either) so it would probably be best to use the Flatpak version.
There are also WebKitGTK browsers like GNOME Web, Luakit, and Surf. WebKitGTK is supported by the Ubuntu security team so using the version from the Trisquel repo should be safe. Of these, GNOME Web is the only "normal" browser. Luakit uses keyboard based navigation similar to Vim so it might be a bit hard to use. Surf is extremely minimalistic to the point that you have to recompile it just to change the settings. The real downside of WebKitGTK browsers though is that they seem to be slow. I'm not really sure why this is the case.
Thank you very much Legimet! I always have GNOME WEB installed, "Epiphany", but I rarely use it because it is difficult to manage favorites in it. It will be a matter of getting used to it. I appreciate the information you have provided. Greetings!
Seeing the same people who helped the ship (Firepox) sink (by supporting increasing unethical and proprietary influence within GNU/Linux) now leaving the sinking ship yet with the majority of these people probably not going to acknowledge the role they had in helping the ship sink nor seeking to change their ways is poetic but also sad.
People be like: "I've disrespected the ethical ideals of the free software movement and I supported sacrificing ethics for the sake of popularity (as in when Debian started adding non-free firmware to the official installation images, and as in supporting proprietary malware such as SteamOS), but now that the situation has blew in my face as my favorite browser started disrespecting me beyond my tolerance level this is too much, I'm leaving Firefox yet I will probably still continue to support the lack of ethics that has lead to this situation."
Many of these people probably only see the trees but not the forest, the names of singular programs become trigger words yet these people seem to refuse to oppose the system (the forest) that gave rise to these trees in the first place, just like the people who oppose singular politicians within the "United" States government without strongly opposing the awful system that gave rise to these unethical politicians in the first place
Unfortunately, the world is slowly falling apart. And the main reason this happens is damn money. I think that living right now is like undergoing a test in which you decide how far you are going to sell yourself. Greetings!
> And the main reason this happens is damn money.
Are you suggesting we should liquidate money?
I sympathize with finlannoche's sentiment, but it's true that money is not the only tool of tyranny, it's merely one of its most (in)famous representations. Even during the early phases of feudalism (where currency didn't exist) oppression was still high, instead of selling themselves through money people simply were forced to pay in other ways such as work, being forced to hand out grain to the feudal lord and forced allegiance to Catholicism, so even if money didn't exist the oppression encouraged by money would still exist through other forms of power, money is not the only representation of tyrannous power but simply one of the most obvious ones, other forms of oppression and power are undemocratic States (which would still seek profit in the form of political capital even if money suddenly stopped existing), proprietary software (which is still oppressive even if fully gratis with money not being involved), non-democratic corporations controlling factories in a way that oppresses its workers (even without currency these corporations could still demand work by hoarding goods through the concept of "private property" and only handing out these goods to people in exchange for work).
Money is simply one of the methods of tyrannical power, but it's still possible to have tyranny even without what's currently known as money, money is only one of the methods of trade where people give up their bodily autonomy in order to survive. The ideal would probably be to get rid of money, but also;
* concentration of capital where a few owners are able to undemocratically own the workplace where the working many work in bad conditions. We should achieve post-scarcity society where there's enough automation for everyone to have enough food and be able to do what one truly enjoys instead of being forced to work in a job one is not happy with, but even in places without automation where humans are required the workplace should be humane and democratic
* undemocratic governance such as
* * presidentialism (where they concentrate large amounts of power on a single "representative" creating a cult of personality and unhealthy dependence trying (and failing to) represent millions of people through one arrogant person and trying to make the country's policy aligned with the wishes of this person, only for this person to become rightly condemned for violating the people and be replaced in a few years by someone who's going to do the same thing abusive crap again just in the "opposite" direction).
* * tyranny of the majority (the people voting to take away the rights of oppressed minorities), speciecism, ableism, antiveganism, social darwinism and other forms of a majority imposing oppression upon an struggling minority. People should see eachother as sentient living beings rather than believing they are in some sort of competition where they need to cause the most suffering possible upon the other person in order to come out on top
The problem is not money itself, the problem is those who use it as a tool to control human beings.
While I don't like nonfree firmware, I don't think we should blame users for wanting it as it is the fault of the hardware manufacturers that you won't get WiFi without it. Telling everyone to buy an old ath9k chipset is not a real solution, and I'm saying this as someone who does have ath9k chipsets in my devices. Even most people on this forum probably use a computer with nonfree UEFI firmware, because not many people are willing to run an ancient Thinkpad.
Debian already offered access to non-free firmware in the past under "unofficial" installation media easily available on Debian's website, the difference is that upon Debian 12's release in 2023 they abandoned all pretense of such installation media being unofficial and made it the officially official installation media while ending the making of proprietary-firmware-free installation media since Debian 12 (codenamed "Bookworm", I like to call it "Tapeworm" instead), this in fact not only legitimizes proprietary firmware by making it official but the way Debian handled this was atrocious since the new installation media literally coerces the user into installing "needed" non-free firmware because the described methods for disabling the installation of non-free firmware tend to be unreliable (e.g. if you disable the loading of non-free-firmware, the loading of free-firmware is also disabled, showing how little they care about the minority who doesn't want to use (be used by) non-free software). Both Trisquel's forums and even Debian's own documentation document how unreliable trying to disable the loading of non-free firmware in Debian is.
Notice how people hate on FSDG-distros for "taking away user choice" (despite such distros being a tiny minority and the number of non-free distros being much higher, if FSDG-compliance exerts any coercion it is much, much smaller than the coercion exerted by the proudly non-free distros which legitimize proprietary software and perpetuate its oppression), yet when Debian does the same and "takes away user choice" by pressuring installation of non-free firmware, suddenly people love it because it makes Debian much more like the other non-free distros which constitute a huge majority, in fact taking away much more choice than the tiny minority of FSDG-compliant distros.
Debian already offered plenty of non-free firmware in the past, people simply praise Debian Tapeworm because in it Debian embraced non-free-firmware as something official to have in installation media. People saw it as some sort of liberation, when it was in fact Debian surrendering to further proprietary influence.
In current society, "choice" is often simply means to be as bad as the majority, while "oppression" is thinking independently and not supporting this "choice" between evils
> Notice how people hate on FSDG-distros for "taking away user choice"
I haven't seen this sentiment much. Looking up some Reddit threads on Trisquel, it seems that mostly people just say that they wish they could use it (or another FSDG distro) but their hardware doesn't work.
I'm sorry but it's just unrealistic to expect even most free software supporters to replace their WiFi chipset with a very old one. Even people on this forum make compromises, in that most aren't running an ancient Thinkpad with Libreboot. Can't really blame the users for wanting recent, functioning hardware. We should blame the hardware manufacturers instead.
Edit: You mentioned veganism, and I'm also a vegan (for over a decade), so I'll put it to you this way. According to the definition, veganism seeks to exclude animal exploitation "as far as possible and practicable." So you can still be vegan while taking necessary medication that contains animal products or is animal tested. I would argue that firmware is analogous to this, as most people cannot practicably avoid it. (And this is an issue that, in my opinion, is more important than free software. If for whatever reason I had to either compromise my veganism or use nonfree software, I wouldn't hesitate to choose the latter).
You misunderstand, I didn't mean to blame those who are coerced into installing non-free-firmware but rather perpetrators who normalize such non-freeness by glorifying the presence of non-free-firmware and non-free-drivers in distros and acting like such things should be normalized, the people who sometimes complain about the moral decay in programs like Firepox but who spend a great deal of time normalizing immoral proprietary garbage like SteamOS like turning GNU/Linux into a proprietary system is the best thing ever.
> those who are coerced into installing non-free-firmware but rather the perpetrators who normalize such non-freeness
The former are mostly a victim of the latter, the latter increasing society's dependence on non-free-firmware by normalizing it. Debian's position was already problematic but Debian had to make it even worse by further normalizing non-free-firmware as an integral part of Debian's official installation media.
I have a friend, a very good ethical friend who cares a lot about software/cultural freedom. He's stuck in Devuan because of non-free-firmware, but that doesn't mean he spends time glorifying his situation as if Devuan's proprietary-firmware-inclusive position was something to admire. When I started the GNU/Linux journey, the first distro I used was Mint, and the last I regularly used before switching to a FSDG-compliant system was Devuan. Do I admire Mint and Devuan nowadays because before switching devices I was coerced to use (be used by) the proprietary firmware those systems (maybe proudly) provided? No. I hate Mint and I hate Devuan, Mint is a reactionary distro seeking to make GNU/Linux be simply "Linux", Mint openly disagrees with boycotting proprietary software and rewrites history by calling itself "Linux Mint" rather than "GNU/Linux Mint", which is GNU denialism. And Devuan has the pretense of caring about "freedom" by fully excluding systemd's init system allegedly due to things like "vendor lock-in", despite the fact that the very same thing could be said (and much more intensely) about the non-free firmware that Devuan provides. It's relatively easy to use a system without systemd's init system, it's much harder to use a system without the non-free-firmware that Devuan provides on official installation media. Where's the concern for vendor-lock-in when Devuan provides such firmware but excludes systemd's init system? Even if I (arguably) literally depended on these distros in the past, I do not want to defend their disregard for ethics, and I shame Mint for trying to drive me away from the ethics of GNU/Linux.
There are so many non-free distros, the world is drowning in them, there's no good point when people supported Debian's move to become even less free just like the other non-free distros, installing non-free-firmware on Debian was already relatively easy even before Debian 12, the move didn't do much to help people who were dependent on such firmware but rather made the hole even deeper by normalizing such firmware and making the liberation of such firmware much less likely. These pro-proprietary-software people seem to want the GNU/Linux world to become an homogenous mass where every single distro normalizes proprietary software and embraces it
> > Notice how people hate on FSDG-distros for "taking away user choice"
> I haven't seen this sentiment much.
From the toxic pseudodiverse craphole known as "Reddit" where there's an illusion of diversity through the (anti)social network's promition of several different variants of extreme toxicity: https://rl.bloat.cat/r/linuxmemes/comments/1i2vhg4/the_choice_is_mine_richard/
> 82
> u/Plastic_Past9898
>
> and the choice of not adding those options is of distro maintainers, claudio. no one is forcing you to use FOSS[1]. don't make imaginary problems.
> 37
> u/claudiocorona93
>
> It's just a meme. You can choose the distro you want.
Ah yes, such person is the example of the schrondinger evil person, the one who says something disgustingly evil but then decides whether one is joking or not based on the other's reaction
[1]. They said "FOSS" but they should be meaning "free software" in this context since all the distros which exclude non-free-software are based on free software philosophy rather than "FOSS". https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#FOSS
Thank you for being vegan by the way, I really appreciate your commitment to ethics and the wellbeing of animals :)
Proprietary systems/distros will probably continue to be the absolute majority as long as society is still dependent on proprietary software. Our influence is not THAT great to the point where shaming the policies of non-free distros will make them all disappear and force people to buy free-firmware-friendly hardware. Most of these distros probably don't care enough to even take our criticism into account. But criticizing these distros does show to those interested in ethics that those distros are far from ideal. And this should accelerate the process of decreasing society's dependence on proprietary software, leading to the proprietary distros slowly withering away as society becomes more free.
> vendor-lock-in
I'm very sorry, I just realized that using such term when referring to views regarding systemd is harmful, I guess I knew there was something weird about the word "vendor" but I couldn't point out what until I remembered that it's part of this article: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Vendor
> We should blame the hardware manufacturers instead.
I recommend condemning both the hardware manufacturers and those who normalize the behavior of such manufacturers by treating society's dependence on proprietary firmware as a benign thing. Behind every evil action there is a large group of people who are atleast partially to blame for not stopping such action.
I hope they are at least raising the alarm that non-free firmware replacements are needed in the process.
I thought mozilla was already selling users data. I am surprised that it hasn't happened sooner, given what mozilla has become since Mitchel Baker took over leadership.
Unless you want to imply that Mozilla has always been "bad", what you write makes no sense. Mitchell Baker oversaw the creation of the Mozilla Foundation and became her first president. That was in July 2003, when Firefox was actually named Firebird and the market share taken by Microsoft Internet Explorer was at its peak (above 95%): https://web.archive.org/web/20210211161917/http://www.onestat.com/html/aboutus_pressbox23.html
Baker has remained the head of the foundation since then. Her retirement from that position was only announced two weeks ago: https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/mozilla-leadership-growth-planning-updates/
Maybe Zozo was referring to Netscape Communicator, which became Mozilla in 1998, about five years before the Mozilla Foundation came into existence.
I thought there was some controversy and due to that, one of the leaders was forced to step down. It was due to donating to same sex discrimination political candidate or something like that.
If what you say is true, however, she lost her way and choose greed eventually.
I think the problem is not that they are going to sell their users data, whether they sell it or give it away is not important, since the commercial aspect has nothing to do with freedom. What worries me is that the mass of users do not even care about the conditions they accept when using a program. We, on the other hand, do care because we prefer Abrowser and Icedove.
I think we have to warn more about understanding the risks of using a program that does not respect freedom, such as Firefox, Linux and many others that look good, but include non-free software inside.
perhaps true, selling data/giving it away are both evil.
Also, I realized something when I thought mozilla was already selling info, I was considering stuff like pocket and telemetry crap in their web browser.
I guess Magic Banana will see this and tell me if that counts.
1. If Mozilla gows bankrupt and there is no Firefox,
what will happen to Abrowser,
which is based on it?
2. GNOME Web (Epiphany) is built on WebKitGTK, the GTK port of Apple's WebKit rendering engine.
An Apple engine?
Isn't that a security problem?
1. If Mozilla gows bankrupt and there is no Firefox
That looks unrealistic. With or without Mozilla, Firefox will keep on being developed.
2. GNOME Web (Epiphany) is built on (...) An Apple engine? Isn't that a security problem?
WebKit is free software. That does not make it immune to errors introducing vulnerabilities, but it is not the natural choice to implement malware (as you seem to imply), because you need to hide it (for instance, disguising it into an error), the source code being available.
Agreed. For Firefox to truly vanish, Mozilla would need to disappear completely, with no one in the broader community willing to continue its development. Given Firefox’s popularity, that seems highly unlikely.
Mozilla disappearing, I could see.
Firefox code and code development disappearing, I could not see.
By most recent accounts, Mozilla is a very poorly run organization which is unable to properly prioritize its own staffing and production schedule, or even which products to work on or which mergers and acquisitions to enter into. It would not be shocking to see it disappear as an entity if and when the Google money vanishes.
But, as @jxself is saying here, Firefox will survive in some form or other.
We've seen this all before, when Oracle put OpenOffice into its death throes and The Document Foundation and LibreOffice rose from its ashes and greatly improved on the suite of programs. The free software development model is very adaptive in that way - like water flowing around obstacles. Who knows - Firefox could become much better if taken out from under Mozilla.