Sega Mega Drive Emulators?
Hello,
I have installed Trisquel 6.0 on my netbook in an effort to use a fully free GNU/Linux operating system. Since the machine I am using has limited hardware performance, I install emulators of old game consoles for gaming. I installed ZSNES and FCEUX (SNES and NES emulators, respectively) but wish to install a Sega Genesis/Mega Drive emulator from Trisquel's official repository. The other distribution I use heavily is Slackware, which offers an emulator named Gens/GS unofficially. It works very well and as far as I know Trisquel does not offer any Sega emulators at all.
I am fairly certain Gens/GS is under the GPL, and I don't see any immediate problems with it in comparison to other game emulators in Trisquel's repos.If the emulator is in fact problematic, I would like to know how so, and I will look elsewhere. Thank you very much, and regards.
Wikipedia entry for Gens/GS lists it as GPL'd and free software: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gens/GS
Official webpage for Gens/GS: http://segaretro.org/Gens/GS?rdfrom=http%3A%2F%2Finfo.sonicretro.org%2Findex.php%3Ftitle%3DGens%2FGS%26redirect%3Dno
I don't really recommend video game console emulators. I'm not aware of any free games for any of them and many video game consoles (particularly those from Nintendo) have been extensive users of DRM (Digital Restrictions Management) ever since the NES came along. Also, emulation is relatively expensive, so your netbook is probably capable of playing more games than you realize; try some of them out from the repo. :)
Interestingly, I can't find any free Mega Drive emulators. I'm kind of surprised, especially considering how many nonfree ones there are. I suppose you should just skip on Mega Drive emulation.
Looks like mednafen is supposed to play games for that system.
Thank you for the replies so far; I'll look into Mednafen.
onpon4: I can play some Linux-native games on the netbook alright, such as Battle for Wesnoth and Armagetron. I suppose I'm partial to emulators because I grew up with those systems. Unfortunately there aren't really any consoles whatsoever with any free games.
Yeah, I can understand being partial to something. I kept playing various nonfree games for quite a while despite the cognitive dissonance that resulted. Eventually, though, I learned to let go of those games and move on; I hope you do, too. :) There are actually quite a lot of free games that are fun and don't require a particularly powerful computer (and many that don't even need 3D acceleration).
I have the same problem.
Concerning my PC I really don't mind making many sacrifices for using free software; but abandon my consoles? Good old Snes?
The combination "emulator + rom" is a different question, but in case we talk about old fashioned consoles like the snes, I don't see a big problem that they run non-free games, since they aren't really a computer, and I don't think that they have any malicious features.
Talking about modern consoles like the PS3, things are getting more painful...
> they aren't really a computer
It's not?
It has a CPU, RAM, user-loadable software programs, etc..
Consider that people even hack on games & make new ones and modified
versions.
Even the old Atari 2600 has new titles coming out each year.
> I don't think that they have any malicious features.
Being proprietary is itself a malicious feature. Like a virus or
backdoor it subverts the control of my computer to someone else. They
now get to decide what my computer will or will not do; not me.
jxself: Sorry, but I suppose I'm not understanding how unmaintained pre-online-era games being played on an offline FOSS emulator equates to the subversion of control or virus-like behavior. If I want to play Mega Man, I literally have one thing I've decided on doing: play Mega Man. The "someone else" in this instance has no way of controlling anything, unless you mean just the way the game functions (and its default ROM is the only one I have any interest in playing.) If I'm mistaken and you're not talking about 8/16-bit emulators but instead the physical consoles, I apologize for the misunderstanding. In any event, thank you for the feedback!
If I'm missing something, please get back to me. I'm always getting new perspectives.
He means you don't know what the program is doing and can't change what it's doing, though I wouldn't go so far as to compare this to a virus. Nonfree video games have had malicious features for a long time, though, especially DRM (Nintendo in particular has always had a love affair with DRM).
Old video game consoles (pre-6th generation, along with the Gamecube) actually are so tightly integrated that calling them "computers" is a stretch; they don't have any sort of hard drive or software you install. Any software is contained on ROM. Technically, it's enough to classify these old consoles as mere circuits. I don't know of any way this reasoning can be used to excuse emulation, but let's just assume it can be.
Still, I'm not comfortable with giving nonfree games made for dedicated consoles a free pass just because we can technically call them circuits instead of programs. One reason is the long history of DRM being used in video games and video game consoles. Another, more important reason is that these old games were developed for the same purpose as modern nonfree games that clearly are computer programs; the only reason we can exclude the machines they ran on as computers is because of the technology at the time. It just seems like too much of a robot mentality to say that the Atari 2600 version of Frogger is OK, but the same game on personal computers of the time is not.
On a similar note, I don't think playing arcade video games results in your freedom being compromised; you are not the owner of the machine, so what goes on between you moving the joystick and Pac-Man downing pills doesn't matter from your perspective. Still, I don't like the idea of using this technicality to say Street Fighter IV is OK in arcades, but not OK on the PS3.
In summary: I think you're right. Technically, these old consoles don't count as computers, so I won't criticize you for playing those games, but I don't like the distinction because it seems a bit too artificial. The same applies to arcade video games.
On 2013-04-23 00:53, name at domain wrote:
> Old video game consoles (pre-6th generation, along with the Gamecube)
> actually are so tightly integrated that calling them "computers" is a
> stretch
That depends what you mean by "computer". Video game consoles are all
Von Neumann machines. They are exactly the same as a desktop PC with
respect to the class of algorithms they can compute.
The user of a game suffers in just the same way as the user of a
spreadsheet if they are denied the four freedoms.
--
Bob Ham <name at domain>
for (;;) { ++pancakes; }
Yes, in that sense, they are computers, but what I meant was that, similar to the computer we can suppose is in a microwave oven, it could just as well be a circuit due to the way it operates.
I still don't like the idea of playing nonfree games just because of that (so I don't), but it does seem to me to be a valid excuse.
onpon4: Thanks; that makes sense. I'm aware using 2-4th gen emulators is a very "tiptoeing the line" thing. The ROMs themselves are not FOSS, but the software that plays them can be. The reason I made this thread was because I was wondering what made the folks at Trisquel pass FCEUX, ZSNES, and even a Nintendo DS emulator (DeSmuME)... but not a Mega Drive emulator. I'm thinking now it's just a "didn't think of it" thing since the SNES is more well-remembered from that generation of consoles, and Gens/GS isn't the most well known Mega Drive emulator besides.
I see where you're coming from. Perhaps I can look for "clones" for some games, or similar play-style-wise games, but many have no FOSS peers as it stands.
All the games machines I have seen details of feature a
microprocessor of some sort. They are computers. FSF say boot ROMs
are OK because they are not modifiable and sold with the hardware.
That seems to put paid to images of them being used by an emulator on
both counts.
But one door closing often simply means you should open a new one.
So what *new* hobby or pastime could you take up as a replacement?
If you want games then you could learn Chess or Go which have
fascinated entire nations for centuries between them. Get the basics
with a book and the free software computer opponents. Then the
Internet and local clubs are your oyster.
Or if you like RPGs, then IMO pen and paper RPGs are vastly superior.
Again you should be able to find a local club. JAGS2 from here
http://www.jagsrpg.org/ is a basic system that is under the GNU FDL.
OTOH GIMP and the camera in your phone are much more powerful and
flexible than the well known 'Box Brownie' nearly all the famous
photographers of my youth started with. In those days they would
still as projects do a shoot with one, just to show how great
photography doesn't need expensive equipment.
There's always reading these two books http://inventwithpython.com/
and writing your own computer games. Trust me it's quite easy and a
lot more fun than playing them. :-)
Or circuit bending as a prequel to learning about electronics.
I'm sure you can think of something if you're open to new things.
Not sure if I appreciate the assumption that I simply have no other hobbies other than playing old video games. I have a few emulators installed on my netbook as they serve well as pick-me-up games if I have 30-45 minutes between lectures/labs at university. I use emulators 0-3 times a week and almost never game for long.
I do own a DSLR, and have been a photographer since I was quite young. :) If I have to name a favorite personal past-time, that would certainly be it. As a note, GIMP and digiKam/showFoto are extremely competent image editors and I use them for everything.
Thank you for the suggestions. I understand moving on, but there's nothing wrong with appreciating things from the past as well as things in the present. In the end, it's just a leisure activity I indulge in occasionally.
Your inference, that I presumed you have no other hobbies was not an intended implication of my writing. More that a new replacement pastime for one you drop is often easier to deal with than removing one and being left with your remaining hobbies. That isn't always true, just often enough true for me to make the suggestion.
I'm almost certainly using some proprietary software in the intermediate part of the Internet between my home and the Trisquel web site writing this. Short of being off the grid using proprietary software is unavoidable.
So it's a matter of personal ethical choice where you draw the boundary. Further as a shortish journey into psychology and related sciences will show you humans are mostly not rational. So you're perfectly entitled to consider that for you using these games is an acceptable compromise based on whatever criteria you chose. Fair enough. Accept it and move on is the best advice I've seen on this forum.
However you're doing something which is contrary to carefully thought out and widely debated FSF policy. Which most people here are strongly committed to. You're unlikely to persuade us using proprietary game software when you have a choice to do otherwise is consistent with free software ethics.
You bring up some good points; sorry if I seemed combative in my previous post.
I've been thinking... If Trisquel has removed Firefox in part because of its suggestion of non-free software and add-ons, would it be fair to ask why game emulators are not seen as similarly problematic? Would the use and availability of these emulators represent an unacceptable breach of truly FOSS ethics? I do not wish to start an argument, I'm genuinely curious as to how free software ethics regarding emulators play out.
To clarify, what I mean is that game emulators like FCEUX and ZSNES all have an implied "suggestion" of using non-free games. After all, the purpose of these (albeit FOSS) programs is to play proprietary ROMs. With this in mind, I'm considering removing the emulators and ROM collections from my netbook. Regards.
> You bring up some good points; sorry if I seemed combative in my
> previous post.
I thought it more arguing your position vigoursly than combative. No
need for an apology.
>
> I've been thinking... If Trisquel has removed Firefox in part
> because
> of its suggestion of non-free software and add-ons, would it be fair
> to ask why game emulators are not seen as similarly problematic?
> Would
> the use and availability of these emulators represent an
> unacceptable
> breach of truly FOSS ethics? I do not wish to start an argument, I'm
> genuinely curious as to how free software ethics regarding emulators
> play out.
>
The Free Software Distribution Guidelines say Trisquel may not
contain or recommend proprietary software and remain compliant. To
prevent Firefox recommending proprietary software we have to change
the code. Firefox code is free but the branding and trademark(s) are
not. Thus Abrowser in Trisquel is Firefox, minus proprietary
recommendations and branding, plus a few privacy enchancing patches.
The same may not contain recommend proprietary software criterion is
what is being applied to the emulators. The emulators are free
software, presumably the boot ROM code they contain if any is also
free software. Report a bug if you find differently. Therefore
there is nothing stopping us including it. It is quite conceivable
that somewhere on the Internet are free as in freedom games for some
of the emulators.
If it had been stipulated that the ability to use proprietary
software blocked inclusion, then GNU/Linux would itself have to be
blocked as it can run proprietary software. So the fact that
emulators have few if any games that are free that work with them is
simply a comparison of how much free software there is available for
a given free platform.
> To clarify, what I mean is that game emulators like FCEUX and ZSNES
> all have an implied "suggestion" of using non-free games. After all,
> the purpose of these (albeit FOSS) programs is to play proprietary
> ROMs. With this in mind, I'm considering removing the emulators and
> ROM collections from my netbook. Regards.
Freedom 0 is:
The freedom to run the program, for any purpose
Therefore we do not judge these emulators by their implicit purpose.
Instead we recommend you look for free software games that work with
them if you have the interest.
In my last email reply I forgot to commend you on thinking again about your use of these games.
On a more personal note your questions and this thread have helped me clear up my thinking around whether to take up a close friend's invitation to volunteer at The National Museum of Computing (UK). Where, of course, there is lots of very old proprietary software with exactly the features we have been discussing. I have now decided the proprietary past is not worth saving for the free future.
There exist many microwave ovens which are much more similar to a computer than an old console is.
Same thing with modern cars, tvs and so on.
Since they are just machines for playing games (I didn't buy them to do computing) and they do this just without any malicious features (which they simply can't have), then it is ok for me to use them, just like it is ok to cook my meal with a microwave oven.
The problem with DRM is no problem because of two points:
1. If you buy a used old console game, you don't support the distribution of the DRM techniques, because the producer of the game does not benefit from this transaction
2. Nowadays, the DRM restrictions don't work any more. We are able to copy this games and share it with anyone, so it is no problem to break the handcuffs.
>1. If you buy a used old console game, you don't support the distribution of the DRM techniques, because the producer of the game does not benefit from this transaction
I think this is not strictly true as your money certainly flows towards the DRM maker. There just is a few hands in between. Now the guy you're buying the game from gets funds from you and if he bought a game with DRM in the past he's likely to do so again.
Of course, this is not nearly as bad as buying directly from the original DRM maker. But on the other hand it doesn't absolve us from responsibility wholly either.
I don't think the comparison to a microwave oven or being a circuit
really applies here.
* The microwave doesn't come with a slot to insert and run new or
different programs into it.
* The circuit analogy doesn't hold up either, since the user can
change the operation just by inserting a new or different program -
It's more like a computer in that case just like I can come along &
insert a new CD into mine and boot a new or different version of, say,
Trisquel.
I recognize some of the references in this thread as coming from a
page on fsf.org and the exceptions they mention are intended to be
used cases where none of these points are true.
Technically, a snes game might be a programm, but practically, there is nearly no difference to an audio cd which you insert into an audio cd player.
The only difference is, that I can make a cd of my own with my own music, and the cd player will play it.
Of course, this is not true for my snes.
I can't make my own game and run it.
So it is right: THIS freedom is restricted.
But this is a much weaker restriction than running non-free software on my computer.
The freedoms which I give away by running non-free software on my computer have many bad influences on me and the society.
Non of those bad influences apply to the use of the snes.
I can share the games, it does not contain malicious features, no one has control over me etc.
> I can't make my own game and run it.
Oh? Why not? You should check out the homebrew community - People do
indeed make games for these ancient consoles.
I guess lembas is right. But then I don't see the moral problem with playing roms on an emulator.
You don't support the DRM maker at all, you can copy and share the rom and the software to run it can be entirely free (like zsnes is).
The only problem is, that it is not legal.
This topic actually helped me to clarify my thoughts about emulators. I appreciate all the viewpoints.
I want to say that I like the 5th and 6th generation consoles (except for Xbox), and I also like some from the 2nd, 3rd and 4th generations as well.
In my case, I do have a list of must-keep titles which made my childhood like the Harvest Moon series as well as the Ace Attorney series.
Besides that, I also play games to make critics of them.
I'm also considering the fact to finally discard my must-keep games. But I don't know where to find homebrews which resemble them.
Also, I'm strongly thinking about buying a PlayStation 2 console, this one being jailbroken, or a GameCube, this one being more hard to find where I live, and so the games for it are hard to find too.
Best regards, ADFENO.
Have a nice day.