Trisquel free, but based on Ubutu ??
Hi All !
I came here from https://prism-break.org/
which told me, that Ubuntu is not free and
Trisquel is completely free [FSF].
Now, here, I read, it is based on Ubuntu ?
Could someone probably shed some light
onto this ??
Thanks anyway and
best regards,
++mabra
Hi !
I found some info in the documentation section.
But I am coming from Windows. So, what differentiate
that Ubuntu (??) part from Debian, for example??
I am coming more and more into the situation
to keep everything on debian, where I initially
have been started.
But - thanks to NSA problem - I am trying
to find soemthing completely free and open
and easy for windows users. Windows has
definitively to be removed :-(
Thats really bad, because I know the usual
users thinking about their Linux experience,
which is mostly bad. Currently, only nerds
are on Linux and this must be changed.
Thanks anyway and
best regards,
++mabra
On 15/08/13 21:23, mabra wrote:
> I found some info in the documentation section. But I am coming from
> Windows. So, what differentiate that Ubuntu (??) part from Debian,
> for example??
>
> I am coming more and more into the situation to keep everything on
> debian, where I initially have been started.
Some differences:
- Ubuntu LTS releases are supported for five years, and Debian releases
for approximately three.
- Ubuntu enables sudo by default for the initial user, Debian doesn't.
- Ubuntu includes firmware blobs in the kernel, Debian doesn't.
- Ubuntu includes the latest version of Firefox, as of Wheezy Debian is
now staying on ESR versions. Debian Squeeze is using Iceweasel 3.5, a
rebranded Firefox 3.5 with backported security patches.
- Ubuntu has shorter development and freeze time than Debian.
- Ubuntu has PPAs, Debian does not.
- Packages that are in Ubuntu's Universe repository (rather than Main)
are more likely to be buggy. For example, GNOME fallback mode and
Abiword are buggy in this release.
- Debian supports more CPU architectures than Ubuntu.
Andrew.
The differences between Debian and *buntu or more to the point Trisquel are:
- Choice of default desktop. Unlike the Microsoft Windows world, where there is one desktop per release, GNU/Linux offers a choice of different desktop experiences. Debian provides a choice of the main players which are Gnome (as different as Microsoft Windows 8), KDE (had the Aero look before Microsoft did, much more powerful but most familiar to Microsoft Windows users), XFCE (a faster lighter desktop) and LXDE (an even lighter desktop). Trisquel provides Gnome 3 fallback, which gives a familiar taskbar with a launch button and apps on a menu from it. Trisquel Mini uses LXDE for a similar experience on less powerful machines.
- Choice of default apps. GNU/Linuxes usually come with a whole 'app store' of software you can install, they're called a repo or repos. The basic install will include things like Office software, perhaps graphics apps etc on top of the distro's (Debian and Trisquel are different distros) own choice of media players, browser, email program etc. These vary by distro and desktop within distro.
- Each distro has it's own community 'style' which comes from the fact that they are aimed at different intended audiences. The Trisquel community for example is very tolerant of questions you can easily find the answer to in the manuals or by searching the web. Some other distro communities will either ignore such questions or tell you to RTFM or STFW.
Lastly the impression that GNU/Linux is only for geeks/nerds is old fashioned and mistaken. I have happy non-geek GNU/Linux users among my friends. Changing to GNU/Linux is no more difficult than say switching between Microsoft and Apple. Gnome and Gnome fallback particularly are easier to use than either of those. Trisquel is the easiest to use distro which guarantees the software freedoms. These freedoms also guarantee no interference from NSA / GCHQ et al.
On 15/08/13 21:16, mabra wrote:
> Hi All !
>
> I came here from https://prism-break.org/ which told me, that Ubuntu
> is not free and Trisquel is completely free [FSF].
>
> Now, here, I read, it is based on Ubuntu ?
Trisquel is indeed based on Ubuntu. It uses the Ubuntu kernel patched by
modified Linux-libre scripts. Some packages are also removed. See this
page for more info:
https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/how-trisquel-made
You can always try out Trisquel by downloading the ISO, burning it to a
disk and running the Live CD. This won't affect your existing Windows
installation.
The downloads are here: https://trisquel.info/en/download
Also: welcome! Please post if you are having any issues with Trisquel.
Andrew.
That "PRISM Break" page has had this dumb idea flow in that being based on Ubuntu makes a distro "dangerous" because Canonical "can't be trusted". This is nonsense; if a program is free, you can study the source code and find out if it is malicious or not. Flash Player, included in Linux Mint Debian Edition, which is suggested by this "PRISM Break" website, is far more dangerous than a distro that's based on a distro that is developed by nasty people, with the nonfree bits removed; since Adobe Flash Player is proprietary, you can't know what the code does, so it's very possible that it has malicious features, including spyware that might include NSA surveillance. You can't know, so you shouldn't trust it.
I've said this before, but the owner of that site doesn't really get a clue on what a pure free software operating system is. They list 3 Debian editions, for which one suggests non-free components (Linux Mint) which is overkill. Is Fedora a pure free software distro or does it include non-free blobs as well? I don't know because I don't use it or the Red Hat deriatives.
The owner won't put Geary up (even though its pure free software) because the features don't match that of Thunderbird. Whatever.
Fedora ships a kernel with proprietary firmware. That is the only freedom problem I am aware of. It can be solved by installing the Linux-libre kernel (used by every 100% free GNU/Linux distribution). Fedora is a lot concerned about patent lawsuits. We can understand that, especially because most of its developers live in the USA (whereas Trisquel developers are in the EU where software patents are illegal). As a consequence, Fedora does not propose free codecs to read/write patented formats (contrary to Trisquel that has them in the default install). Because almost all users want to play their MP3 songs and their MP4 videos, they end up adding a popular third-party repository that contains the required codecs... and much proprietary software. That is why, in practice, Fedora boxes usually are far from being "pure" (I reuse your word).
Gentoo that is listed as well on https://prism-break.org is far worse: the default configuration let the user install any proprietary software from the primary installation system (Portage). She has to explicitly state (by adding a keyword to a variable specifying the accepted licenses + another keyword to the USE variable to get a deblobbed kernel) that she only wants free software.
I totally agree that the first choice of an OS that PRSM-break should recommend is Trisquel. In addition to the label "approved by the FSF" that none of the currently listed distribution can claim, Trisquel deserves both the "stable" label and the "user-friendly" label. It may not be as stable as Debian but it certainly is more stable than all other choices on the site. As for user-friendliness, I think Trisquel is more user-friendly than LMDE (the only distribution having this label). No need to hesitate mabra: go for Trisquel! :-)
I am a translator!
Parabola and gNewSense are also listed on Prism break website but they aren't recommended to new GNU/Linux users in my opinion.
gNewSense is outdated. I tested the live CD and wireless did not work on my netbook despite being supported since Trisquel 4.1. Also Debian backports repository isn't part of the latest release and thus many packages are very old, for instance the version of MPlayer provided does not support VP8.
Parabola on the other hand is a rolling release and thus requires maintenance (for instance when Arch moved to systemd). Also, packages need to be updated regularly (updating an Arch based system once every 6 months is difficult) which might not suit a work environment for instance which would prefer stability to new features.
Oh, I now see the "Show All" button. gNewSense and Parabola are indeed recommendable even if less recommendable than Trisquel for the reasons you give.
Now, with the "Show All", I see that openSUSE is listed! Not only this distribution is full of proprietary software (the Non-OSS repository is enabled by default) but Novell (the company behind openSUSE) is Microsoft's primary business partner in the GNU/Linux world. How on earth can PRISM-break recommend openSUSE?!
Oh my goodness, I didn't know that.
If that is the case, Opensuse must be avoided.
I've filed a bug against Prism Break for the re-listing of Trisquel here
https://github.com/nylira/prism-break/issues/536
Trisquel was delisted as a consequence poor understanding of what a FSF GFSD distro is and the incorrect assumption it used Ubuntu binary packages.
Even though I've said most non-free software, blobs, firmware and microcode can potentially contain privacy invasive and tracking measures I've not filed bugs against the listings of non-GFSD distros. It does, however, seem to be an opportunity to make a wider point that only the four software freedoms and the primacy of ethical motivation in the free software community can guarantee no tracking by filing the bugs others have mentioned here.
Can I suggest those with an interest file Prism Break bugs. It would be far better if it didn't look like a one person rant.
Debian is one of the oldest GNU/Linux projects still alive. It is also one of the most (maybe THE most) developed project. They have made packages available for nearly all software that you use in Trisquel, and they support many different architectures and even different kernels (they are maybe the only project that supports Hurd at this point).
Debian is not a "Linux Distro" it is so much more. They have stable non stable (testing) versions available, they work closely with other projects (like the Tor project for example) to make the whole computer world better. Debian is really THE number one free software project in the world.
Canonical decided to take their work and make a more "user friendly" version of Debian, which they did for some years and they really made the "linux thing" come to the masses. Nowadays they only try to use the community as a test drive for their soon to be comercial only products.
Trisquel picks Ubuntu and tries to make a free software only environment out of it. Which it does, but can't keep up with their rhythm and updates are frequently late. Also, I doubt they can clean all the "evil codes" that Canonical has been putting into Ubuntu. So.... I agree with Prism Break. Mint, Trisquel and other "Ubuntu based OS" cannot be trusted to run away from Prism. One example is the google dns that comes as default in Trisquel. Google can't be trusted so trusting Trisquel is also a bad option.
Of course, the usability is great, after all you will be ripping the fruits of canonical intervention but honestly... if you want a debian based OS... just go with Debian. That's not only the best way to have a STABLE OS, but also to have free software only (use only main repository) while also keeping security in place. And of course, if you want to use a lemote yeeloong for example, you can't do that with Trisquel, so having Debian is a more "universal" solution, you only have to pick the right flavor.
As for Prism Break, you should learn what you can from them, but don't rely solely on them. They might be wrong, might make mistakes, might be evil, who knows? Use you brain first of all =)
As a personal note, I think the best way to evade Prism is to use a "non compromised system with security and privacy tools". Use a OS you can trust and use apps like Tor, OTR+Pidgin, no proprietary software whatsoever, etc. Keep some principles alive in your head like KISS (Keep It Small and Simple) and DRY (Don't Repeat Yourself).
" Also, I doubt they can clean all the "evil codes" that Canonical has been putting into Ubuntu."
Yeah I think this is really a critical point.
I would trust the debian developers a lot more. But what prism break does is not very consistent. They kick out a completely free ubuntu based distro but keep some distros with proprietary stuff on their list.
We can't trust canonical, but free software from someone you can't trust is much better than proprietary software from someone you can't trust.
Maybe instead of trying to get them to accept Trisquel (they refuse ubuntu based distros, with good reason) we should try to explain to them that those other distros should be removed. They probably never had anyone saying "OpenSuse uses proprietary which is bad because of this and this, so please take that out".
The best solution would be a "try out" category with distros people can very likely use with their current pc just to get in touch with the new gnu system for some period of time before buying a new hardware; but they should recommend these distros just for this purpose and not as a final solution and point out the problems that remain.
Opensuse or Fedora on this list would be ok.
I'm a bit frightend of removing every not-completely-free distro off the list because I recognized in this forum how many people made graduate steps towards 100% free. They would have stayed with windows otherwise.
Concerning Debian... it's a very fine distro but I somehow hesitate to recommend it to a complete newbe.
I tryed out lenny some years ago and squeeze and wheezy just recently. With lenny, it was really hard to configure everything fine and run a nice os. With wheezy, everything was easy but I don't know if it was because of my grown experience or if the system really became more user-friendly. Probably the last one. But can a newbie get along with debian nowadays without problems? Don't know.
Debian seems easy to use, though the last Debian I used was 6.0.6.
I actually agree with you (we seem to be making progress, lol) about the "try out" thing. Letting people experience user friendly Linux distros would help people to realize that they can use a computer without running windows :P
I would maybe suggest Mint, it was the most user friendly distro I ever tried, only left it because of the non free stuff. However Opensuse could also be a good choice. Fedora might have too many bugs (it's used as a working test box for Red Had after all) but maybe it could also be used.
I think the main issue here is the fact that Prism-Break is not a project intended to bring people to use free software. It's main target is to free people from the prism surveillance threat. So, using "introduction distros" woudl not be a viable option. I think they are correct in suggesting the distros they do. OpenBSD and Debian seem like the best shots at breaking Prism. As for Trisquel... well, they are being consistent, refusing every distro ubuntu based, so we can't argue about that. If (as I have previously suggested) Trisquel would work on top of debian instead of Ubuntu, they would probably suggest it as a main choice. And I would maybe do the same too ;)
Debian is not newbie friendly. At least not if you want to use it in the proper way. But for a power user... it's like a dream coming true *.* =)
The Google DNS configuration does not come from Ubuntu. It was a bug Trisquel developers introduced. As we are talking, new ISOs are being built to solve the mistake. For more information, see Trisquel's lead developer post.
If you are trying to make it look better you are failing miserably.... So, not only people have to worry about evil code that leaks from Ubuntu, they also have to worry about stupid mistakes (cmon, that was a really dumb one) made by Trisquel team itself?? Nope, I will pass thanks.
As I have said, I have decided to stick with Debian.
Stable (very very stable to be honest!), security minded (more than Trisquel, who thinks they don't need to install a firewall), free software only (main rep is your friend, unless you want to shoot yourself in the foot), supports many architectures and kernels (no matter what weird computer you will buy one day, they will surely provide support for it), timely updates (how long until that new google free ISO comes out? lol), and honestly.... no more "Canonical" there.
Trisquel should be based on Debian.
I am not "trying to make it look better". I am correcting the wrong statement you made:
I doubt they can clean all the "evil codes" that Canonical has been putting into Ubuntu. So.... I agree with Prism Break. Mint, Trisquel and other "Ubuntu based OS" cannot be trusted to run away from Prism. One example is the google dns that comes as default in Trisquel.
Now, do you have any valid example or just FUD?
You obviously came back to the Trisquel forum to tell people not to use Trisquel and to write that the Trisquel team makes "dumb mistakes". If so, you should not have come back.
> You obviously came back to the Trisquel forum to tell people not to use Trisquel and to write that the Trisquel team makes "dumb mistakes". If so, you should not have come back.
You would love to see me leave right? Well, not your birthday baby, so no cake. And stop making poop everywhere!
As for what you wrote, you have problems reading english apparently: not only we have to trust Trisquel team to be able to clean all evil code Canonical makes into ubuntu (amazon spyware is an example, but I am sure Canonical will keep doing more of this) we also have to deal with dumb mistakes like having google dns set by default. Now, that is just BAD BAD BAD for privacy and security!
I stay here to help people who need advice, and to encourage Trisquel to move away from ubuntu (Debian is a better choice as a base to work with). Until that day, if you ask me, my advice is this: Use Debian as a main OS, have dual boot with Trisquel to keep testing and conributing to it. Just don't rely on it.
Got it? -.^
You came back some five hours ago and have already written more than a dozen posts! They were not about "helping people who need advice".
They were about:
- how Trisquel is, according to you, an insecure operating system (several times);
- how you were, according to you, censored;
- how the Trisquel team makes, according to you, "dumb mistakes";
- how, according to you, the FSF gave up on hard projects;
- ...
I never left, I just had to spend time doing other things, which caused me to be out for a few days. Again, sorry to disapoint you, but I am not leaving, like you would want me to do.
Also, try looking again, I already tried posting some comments that were not related to this whole thing. However, I won't just hide myself and pretend nothing happened. I WAS CENSORED, so I won't deny that.
Yes, the google dns was a dumb mistake, so, I don't see what's wrong with me saying it.
Anyway, you are just looking for an argument, so no point on me talking to you really -.-
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El 26/08/13 09:16, name at domain escribió:
>
> Also, try looking again, I already tried posting some comments that
were not related to this whole thing. However, I won't just hide myself
and pretend nothing happened. I WAS CENSORED, so I won't deny that.
That is a very serious accusation. (At least in my book.) Would you
please recheck? It could have been other things such as faulty email
server on either side, faulty email client, faulty connection, your
message sent to the troll hole, problems with the Trisquel server, etc.
I would like to have this issue and the policies very clear to me in
order to decide if I continue participation on this list. It is very
important for me that even trolls (even Tegskywalker) are not censored.
There are other ways to deal with them. I consider any type of
censorship is authoritarian and I do not agree to participate in places
where it is being exercised.
- --
Saludos libres,
Quiliro Ordóñez
Presidente (en co-gobierno con los socios)
Asociación de Software Libre del Ecuador - ASLE
6008579
Recuerda que todas tus comunicaciones están siendo vigiladas. Lo que
puedes hacer para restar su eficacia es eliminar el software privativo
de tus computadores, evitar el software como servicio, almacenar tus
datos en tus propios equipos y encriptar todas tus comunicaciones.
Toda la información contenida en este mensaje es libre de uso y
distribución con o sin modificaciones y todo correo que reciba implica
que el remitente acepta que tendrá las mismas libertades sin importar
cualquier clausula de confidencialidad o restricción anterior o posterior.
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I will start by saying that I have no wish to see you (or anyone else) leaving this forum. Especially because of what happened to me. I believe that when censorship is applied is when we have to fight back stronger. Don't leave just because they want me to, or because my views are "inconvenient" for them. I will stay and speak my mind freely.
Now, as you can see here https://trisquel.info/en/forum/trisque-might-have-been-compromised#comment-40935
my thread was moved because a mod (one that I had never seen commenting in the forum for the last month) decided it belonged there. He considered that a supposed security issue concerning Trisquel belonged in the Troll Hole (so no one could read about it and think by themselves to decide if they trusted the OS they were using). Now, I admit that most likely it was not a compromise on the entire Trisquel system. Maybe it was a problem with my computer. Who knows? BUT THEY CENSORED ME ANYWAY! And what was worse, if I had not duplicatted the thread on the main forum, I would never know WHO had done it, and anyone who would happen to read my thread on the Troll Hole would think "GNUser decided to post a security issue in the Troll Hole". The supposed mod who moved my thread should have said that he was the one who moved the thread and even he should have talked to the OP (me in the case) before doing so. None of this has happened. I realize that my views are troublesome to some people in this forum (which is the reason they have said already that I shouldn't be here anymore). But I will not leave because they want me to. And neither should you. Speak you mind and don't be afraid that someone won't like it. Even if you are wrong, that is no reason for them to censor you. I was probably wrong in some things I said, and I won't take it lightly that they censored me. I will continue to speak my mind freely, and I will keep helping people here in the forums who need my help.
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I would like to know what is the opinion of people about abolizing
moderation on Trisquel forums and mailing lists. ItThink Trisquel is
about freedom and proposals to censor opinions is not good for Trisquel.
Of course that Trisquel should not promote user subjugating
propaganda. But censorship is not the best way to prevent that. People
on on these groups are mostly in favor of FSF's positions on the
freedom issue. It is possible to ask people to follow the guidelines
and at the same time maintain an attitude against feeding trolls.
What I am asking is: who is in favor of abolishing any type of
modeeration that does not involve spam, including sending messages to
the troll hole? Also, I would like to know what type of help the
moderators would need to implement this kind of replacement of
censorship with motivation to posters.
- --
Saludos libres,
Quiliro Ordóñez
Presidente (en co-gobierno con los socios)
Asociación de Software Libre del Ecuador - ASLE
6008579
Recuerda que todas tus comunicaciones están siendo vigiladas. Lo que
puedes hacer para restar su eficacia es eliminar el software privativo
de tus computadores, evitar el software como servicio, almacenar tus
datos en tus propios equipos y encriptar todas tus comunicaciones.
Toda la información contenida en este mensaje es libre de uso y
distribución con o sin modificaciones y todo correo que reciba implica
que el remitente acepta que tendrá las mismas libertades sin importar
cualquier clausula de confidencialidad o restricción anterior o posterior.
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On 26/08/13 09:05, gnuser wrote:
> not your birthday baby, so no cake. And stop making poop everywhere!
> [...] As for what you wrote, you have problems reading english
> apparently[...] Now, that is just BAD BAD BAD for privacy and
> security!
Please refrain from making inflammatory, trollish statements like these.
You can make a statement without doing this.
[I would have contacted you in private, but I didn't think your Lavabit
email address would work.]
Andrew.