3d Acceleration support
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Hello folks. So I have an Acer Aspire E1-510-2821 PC I bought from walmart. It has Intel graphics and Atheros Wireless, but came with Windows 8 :/. I wanted to liberate it so I figured Trisquel would be a good choice, but much to my suprise, when I booted Trisquel it only booted to console. Appearently the Intel graphics I have was not supported in the kernel included with Trisquel. I installed Trisquel anyway, and then upgraded the linux-libre kernel (according to instructions in the documentation) and it works fine, however I notice there is no 3D acceleration.
I thought Intel graphcis was suppose to support 3D Acceleration on free software. Is there something I'm missing (xorg config perhaps?). I installed KDE to see if it was just that the default Trisquel desktop wasn't acclearted but it is also not.
Any ideas? Here is the graphics I have and kernel version.
jsebean@jsebean-E1-510:~$ lspci | grep VGA
00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation ValleyView Gen7 (rev 0c)
jsebean@jsebean-E1-510:~$ uname -r
3.14.1-gnu
Search posting the result of lspci -vmmnn on the search box of the
search page in h-node.com
--
Saludos libres,
Quiliro Ordóñez
600 8579
There should be a way (other than "waiting for Trisquel 7") to make that Intel graphical chipset work in freedom.
I would try to install the Saucy graphical stack. Those are the packages (e.g., listed by Synaptic) ending with "-saucy" but the ones also starting with "linux-" (you already got the most recent Linux-libre kernel).
Intel Chips do work in freedom, including the one I have, unfortunately Trisquel and all the other distros do not seem to keep up with hardware support. Bummer, I'm going to have to install Ubuntu 14.04. Perhaps I can remove some non-free packages after? At least it works and is better than Windows :/
Sure, Ubuntu can be used in freedom, it's just not like that by default. Everything in the Main and Universe repositories is supposed to be free/libre, but keep in mind that proprietary firmware and proprietary fonts exist in the Main repository (because of how Canonical defines "software" and "free"), so you will need to replace Linux with Linux-libre and make sure you don't have any of the non-libre fonts installed, to have a completely free/libre system.
But I don't think Ubuntu is going to help, unless your only problem is not being able to do a text-based install. It uses Linux 3.13, an older version of Linux than the version of Linux-libre you can get on Trisquel with jxself's repository (3.14).
If it is just that you have trouble with text mode, you might want to try GdNewHat, which would include Linux-libre 3.11 by default, if I'm not mistaken (it hasn't been approved as a free software distribution by the FSF yet, but I think it's going to end up being approved, having checked it myself):
I'd like a debian based system like Ubuntu, Trisquel or Debian itself (I cannot boot Debian otherwise I would use Debian since they do a better job separating free from non-free) but I couldn't get it to boot UEFI, and this PC has not "legacy" bios mode, it's EFI or nothing.
When I update the Linux-Libre kernel using the repo posted here: http://trisquel.info/en/wiki/update-linux-libre-kernel then I can boot into a desktop environment, however there is absolutely no desktop acceleration even though there should be.
I read you should delete the xorg.conf file after updating the kernel to get ValleyView graphics to work accelerated, yet after doing that I still get software rendering, flashing cursor, etc, in other words there is no difference. If I run X -configure then I just get an error "Number of created screens does not match the number of detected devices". It's no secret I have no idea how to configure Xorg nor how to overcome this issue, Googling it doesn't help either, I have never messed with Xorg configs before, and in Ubuntu 14.04 it works out of the box.
Someone else suggests adding the kernel parameter i915.modeset=1, but again, I did this and ran sudo update-grub, yet still there is no 3D acceleration.
The whole thing is frustrating me as I really wish there was a free software Operating System that would work with this hardware out of the box as none of it requires non-free blobs, yet I still have to resort to a non-free OS to get the computer to work as all the free OSes I've used are too outdated. I imagine when Trisquel 7 is released it will work, but that doesn't help in the mean time.
It is too bad the FSF doesn't put more funding into actually developing an official free OS distribution to use rather than just lobbying. I find they lost focus on building a free OS itself and have resorted to the community to build it, they just maintain their parts of GNU, and there is just not enough funding available for one particular OS as the whole community is too fragmented, even though the software exists now. I'm not saying lobbying is bad, but I would feel much happier to donate to the FSF if it actually looked like they were working on an OS distro like Trisquel or even an official GNU distro and keeping up with the new hardware that comes out. Intel appears to gladly liberate and release their firmware and drivers, it's just not used other than by the non-free OSes.
I never heard of gdnewhat, is it based on Redhat or something or is it it's own type of OS? I would download, but my bandwidth here at home is terrible, I downloaded a bunch of OSes (Ubuntu, Debian, Trisquel, etc) at a neighbours as they have a decent connection. To have to download another OS just to find out it doesn't work is annoying as I either have to go to my neighbours or wait a day or two here at home due to my crappy internet connection.
I am a translator!
I would feel much happier to donate to the FSF if it actually looked like they were working on an OS distro like Trisquel or even an official GNU distro and keeping up with the new hardware that comes out.
By purchasing a laptop with Microsoft Windows you already "donated" several dollars to Microsoft. The FSF cannot work on new distributions without funding, so if it is important to you please donate money to them as well.
I should point out that the FSF expresses no interest in developing its own distro:
Quote from https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html.en#gnudist
> As for developing a distribution of GNU/Linux, we already did this
> once, when we funded the early development of Debian GNU/Linux. To do
> it again now does not seem useful; it would be a lot of work, and
> unless the new distribution had substantial practical advantages over
> other distributions, it would serve no purpose.
"t I would feel much happier to donate to the FSF if it actually looked like they were working on an OS distro like Trisquel or even an official GNU distro and keeping up with the new hardware that comes out."
GNU Guix?
FSF doesn't develop software, I think, GNU does (both are tied to RMS but I think they're different entities).
According to https://fsf.org :
We provide critical infrastructure and funding for the GNU project, the foundation of the GNU/Linux family of free operating systems.
GNU isn't an "entity", it's an operating system, and the FSF is responsible for its development. The GNU Project is that development.
Quick Side note regarding the kernel version. The ValleyView drivers were included in Linux Kernel 3.11, so ubuntu 14.04's kernel and The Linux-Libre kernel in jxself's repo has the driver. It's just a matter of setting it up I have no idea how.
Try the LTS enablement stack from saucy. Simply run:
$ sudo apt-get install --install-recommends {linux-generic,xserver-xorg,libgl1-mesa-glx}-lts-saucy
El 22/04/14 09:38, name at domain escribió:
> Intel Chips do work in freedom, including the one I have,
> unfortunately Trisquel and all the other distros do not seem to keep
> up with hardware support. Bummer, I'm going to have to install Ubuntu
> 14.04. Perhaps I can remove some non-free packages after? At least it
> works and is better than Windows :/
>
The best feature in Trisquel is that it gives you freedom. Ubuntu does
not. It captures the user one way or another with the excuse of giving
more functionality; a golden cage. It is a passive and not an
investment. If you do not value freedom, sooner or later you will regret
it because the powerful know how to trick people with temporary and
apparent benefits.
I suggest you check h-node as I told you before. You can also check
dmesg for firmware that is not loaded due to it not being free:
dmesg | grep -i firmware
--
Saludos libres,
Quiliro Ordóñez
600 8579
Wow, lots of relies. Let's start top to bottom haha. :)
>>I would feel much happier to donate to the FSF if it actually looked like they were working on an OS distro like Trisquel or even an official GNU distro and keeping up with the new hardware that comes out.
>By purchasing a laptop with Microsoft Windows you already "donated" several dollars to Microsoft. The FSF cannot work on new distributions without funding, so if it is important to you please donate money to them as well.
I did not buy the computer because I like giving money to Microsoft, as Microsoft is the last company I'd ever want to support. I'm just as disgusted by it as you are, but I do not have a credit card nor do I have money to buy a system like ThinkPengiun. I am a student and have no job, I bought a cheap PC, unfortunately some of the money had to go to Microsoft. It's just as bad as blank media levys going to the RIAA, I don't buy it to support the RIAA, but I have no other choice. If I could get a Windows License refund I would, but I can't, so whatever. I have to live with this PC as this PC was the best I could do. With that said...
> I should point out that the FSF expresses no interest in developing its own distro:
>Quote from https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html.en#gnudist
>> As for developing a distribution of GNU/Linux, we already did this
>> once, when we funded the early development of Debian GNU/Linux. To do
>> it again now does not seem useful; it would be a lot of work, and
>> unless the new distribution had substantial practical advantages over
>> other distributions, it would serve no purpose.
I am really disappointed by this. The FSF should build or stand behind in some way and help fund an OS that keeps up with hardware support as the drivers are released to make it easier for people to switch to free software. If they did this I would go out of my way to try to support the FSF in this if they would work together, but as it is now all they do is campaign. I'm not against campaigning, but it's like putting the cart before the horse. It makes no sense to me to tell people to switch to free software when the majority of PCs out now cannot run it not because the hardware isn't supported in free software, but because the latest releases of free software OSes are behind in adding support for the hardware.
RMS said when he made GNU he did it because, while he couldn't "change the world" and convince the big companies to liberate their software, he could write software and he made GNU, yet today it seems like the FSF and RMS has lost that philosophy and resort to campaigning only; and it's showing in the area of true free software GNU/Linux distributions. Now because the FSF does not promote, fund and back a single free software OS that stays current with new free software supported hardware, the community has to, and the community is really fragmented, lacks funding and is widely volunteer only. Trisquel, Parabola, Gnewsense is just an example of fragmentation. I'm not saying choice isn't good, I support Trisquel and the other projects otherwise I wouldn't be here, but it's no secret that all of the free software OSes have a hard time finding time and money to put toward their projects and it's really unfortunate.
It also makes it harder for a supporter to decide which project to support. For example, I could donate to Trisquel, but there is not much indication that many people would donate enough to make much difference than how things are now. But if the FSF had *one*, easy to use OS that effort could be put into, like Trisquel, lots of people support the FSF and it would show there was a standard everyone could support.
If the computer doesn't work with free software, people can't switch and then you're helpless, especially if you're someone in my shoes where you're a student or poor and cannot afford to buy a PC that does work, such as one from ThinkPengiun. I don't see how it's much different than living in a Country that is oppressive but you have no option to leave, except this has to do with computers and not countries. What do you expect people to do? They can either switch to Ubuntu and try to liberate it the best they can because it works, or use Windows, and we all know what Windows is. Ugh.
>The best feature in Trisquel is that it gives you freedom. Ubuntu does not. It captures the user one way or another with the excuse of giving more functionality; a golden cage. It is a passive and not an
>investment. If you do not value freedom, sooner or later you will regret it because the powerful know how to trick people with temporary and apparent benefits.
I don't need the pep talk I already explained above my intentions and my only options, I just want a system that works that is free (as in freedom), but it's really hard due to the lack of a modern free software OS. See above. I'm not a programmer so any *real* help to get this to work is appreciated.
> I suggest you check h-node as I told you before. You can also check
>dmesg for firmware that is not loaded due to it not being free:
>dmesg | grep -i firmware
I will do that, but I checked h-node before and my hardware is not even listed. I expect that's because it's new? I have no idea. I read here: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTM1NjI that the drivers were included in Linux Kernel 3.11, and the fact that the graphics works on Ubuntu 14.04 suggests it was included some time around there, plus the Xserver does load after I update Linux Libre in Trisquel, just without hardware acceleration when I update the kernel. That's why I think it may be a Xorg config issue. Intel has always liberated the firmware and drivers in the past with their other CPUs I have no reason to believe the firmware is closed now, but I'll check tonight when I reinstall Trisquel.
> Try the LTS enablement stack from saucy. Simply run:
> $ sudo apt-get install --install-recommends {linux-generic,xserver-xorg,libgl1-mesa-glx}-lts-saucy
This is the only real suggestion that I could try while everyone else wants to give pep talks that I have already heard. Thank you. Someone else above suggested try saucy packages but when I tried it in synaptic I got dependency issues. I will be reinstalling Trisquel tonight and will try this as I might have broke something. I'm not sure. It is important to note however that I don't believe this will work as I actually have booted the real Saucy in the past and had to install the alpha 14.04 as saucy did not support the graphics.
Nobody here is aware of any other Free software OSes that have more up to date software on it. Parabola? I know it's based on Arch and not Debian but if I have to use it I will if it's my only choice as I just want this to work.
Any other suggestions are appreciated as I don't know what else to do. Real suggestions, not pep talks with why I should use free software as I have already established the importance of free software long ago and I am really honestly trying to get this to work with free software.
Are there any Trisquel 7 alpha builds out I could install? Anything really would be appreciated. The only PC I got working now is an older one with Debian Wheezy and I'd like to get my new system to work.
-Jonah
Saucy has 3.11, but if it doesn't work, jxself said he's working on the LTS enablement stack from Trusty.
Thanks for that. I installed the Saucy enablement stack but it utterly broke the system haha. Black screen, I could hear Orca come up but I couldn't even get to a console. So back to square one again, gotta reinstall. The farthest I got was with the linux-libre repo.
You need to first install Trisquel on your drive to then install and enjoy {linux-generic,xserver-xorg,libgl1-mesa-glx}-lts-saucy (by the way, you write "this is the only real suggestion that I could try while everyone else wants to give pep talks" even if I proposed, and you ignored, the same fix in the second reply of this thread).
Indeed, a reboot is needed between the "install" part and the "enjoy" one.
Getting the latest kernel (rather than "linux-generic-lts-saucy"), as you did, may help as well.
For those of you who want more info on what Magic and others were saying about the kernel and xorg:
The goal you perceive as important gives light to the route to take. I
think that you perceive this as a pep talk. Nevertheless, it is the way
to see your problem so that you don't "run nowhere fast".
When you manifest your interest in installing a distro that uses
non-free software it shows that you do not want to make a real effort to
be free and boycott those that want to capture others' freedom. Your
actions show that you are interested on being free and on stopping to
contribute to non-free oligarchies as long as it does not involve not
using certain functionality of your hardware. Correct me if I am wrong.
Anyway, I will try to help you.
You have published your lspci:
jsebean@jsebean-E1-510:~$ lspci | grep VGA
00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation ValleyView Gen7
(rev 0c)
As h-node asks details on your hardware, there is no way to know if your
problem is for reverse engineering or configuration. You have not
published that data. You only say it was not on h-node. If you publish
the detail on your device with lspci we can give you the help you seem
to think we are not providing:
lspci -s 00:02.0 -vmmnn
That is what h-node asks. If you can give us that information and the
result of:
dmesg | grep -i firmware
as I have asked you before, we can tell you what is the next step to
take (from the freedom perspective).
--
Saludos libres,
Quiliro Ordóñez
600 8579
"It makes no sense to me to tell people to switch to free software when the majority of PCs out now cannot run it not because the hardware isn't supported in free software, but because the latest releases of free software OSes are behind in adding support for the hardware."
Yeah, I feel the same way.
Convincing people of the benefits of free software is not difficult (at least this is my experience).
But I as soon as they ask for a free alternative for windows or apple I get into trouble.
I think no one of my friends will be happy with trisquel since there are too many problems to deal with (hardware support, flash problem etc.).
The fsf raised lots of money last year and all they do is campaigning and making festivals.
Whining doesn't help. I don't see either of your names on the Trisquel donate list.
You will never seen them on this list if certain things don't change;
as soon as I have a decent income (at the moment I don't) I will at first donate to some much more fundamental projects like gnome or debian;
then I will donate to people who are working on free firmware and free drivers as well as free replacement for flash.
If all this is done, then I might consider donating to trisquel given that the community gets involved in decisions about the distro.
Trisquel is the peak of a huge pyramid, you know.
The biggest problem for the fs movement is not that there is no distro which provides all the excellent working free software without any proprietary stuff (the work trisquel is doing) but that there is no excellent working free software for all people.
If looks are important, install the latest Elementary OS (Luna) and then run the Ubuntu to Trisquel conversion script from https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/migrate-ubuntu-trisquel-without-reinstalling
Another route is to install Trisquel 6 and then install elementary-desktop from the official PPA: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-os/+archive/stable
You may not get as good of an experience initially without tweaks if you go the PPA route, but at least there are options.
Keep in mind, the timing of the Ubuntu 14.04 release is pretty crucial in this case. It sounds like you need a very recent kernel, and it sounds like you also need a very recent version of some other software, like X perhaps, that Trisquel 6 doesn't have. Basically, you need a bleeding-edge system. Ubuntu 14.04 just happens to have been released so recently that it's bleeding-edge enough. If you were in the same situation a month earlier, Ubuntu probably wouldn't have helped much, if at all. If GdNewHat (which is based on Fedora) weren't recent enough, the only alternative I can think of would have been to use Parabola (which is based on Arch).
I think this is a general timing problem with releases of new hardware, compatible software, and OS distributions actually including that new compatible software, not a problem with free/libre systems in particular. At worst, we might experience the problem more because we simply have fewer distros to choose from. One new distro by the FSF probably wouldn't fix it.
Parabola GNU/Linux supports very recent hardware. It is not as user-friendly as Trisquel but it actually is a good point if you have the time (believe me: unless you got unemployed, you have more time while being a student than anytime after until retirement) and desire to learn more about the administration of a GNU/Linux system.
"I am really disappointed by this. The FSF should build or stand behind in some way and help fund an OS that keeps up with hardware support as the drivers are released to make it easier for people to switch to free software. If they did this I would go out of my way to try to support the FSF in this if they would work together, *but as it is now all they do is campaign*"
Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I know FSF has in some ways always campaigned, while the OS development is done by the GNU project (which doesn't campaign).
And GNU Guix seems to suggest that the software development part of it is alive and kicking (well, coding). It's described on FSF's site as "a purely functional package manager for the GNU system, and a distribution thereof."
And I'm getting a bit excited about the probable stamping of approval Gdnewhat seems to be en route to.
Just a curious sidenote getting back to the real issue. The installer of Trisquel actually shows, that is how I can install trisquel (I don't use any text based installer, not sure if there even is one?), however, it boots to console after installing until updating the kernel. It also boots to text if I try to load the live CD.
>The goal you perceive as important gives light to the route to take. I
>think that you perceive this as a pep talk. Nevertheless, it is the way
>to see your problem so that you don't "run nowhere fast".
>
>When you manifest your interest in installing a distro that uses
>non-free software it shows that you do not want to make a real effort to
>be free and boycott those that want to capture others' freedom. Your
>actions show that you are interested on being free and on stopping to
>contribute to non-free oligarchies as long as it does not involve not
>using certain functionality of your hardware. Correct me if I am wrong.
>Anyway, I will try to help you.
>
>You have published your lspci:
>jsebean@jsebean-E1-510:~$ lspci | grep VGA
>00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation ValleyView Gen7
>(rev 0c)
>
>As h-node asks details on your hardware, there is no way to know if your
>problem is for reverse engineering or configuration. You have not
>published that data. You only say it was not on h-node. If you publish
>the detail on your device with lspci we can give you the help you seem
>to think we are not providing:
>lspci -s 00:02.0 -vmmnn
>That is what h-node asks. If you can give us that information and the
>result of:
>dmesg | grep -i firmware
>as I have asked you before, we can tell you what is the next step to
>take (from the freedom perspective).
You seem to think I do not care about freedom and free software which is like putting words in my mouth. That's what offends me because you make it sound like I'm willing to sacrifice my freedom for convienience which I do not want to do. The reason I was here was because I wanted a free software OS. What is wrong with me trying to use a Distro that is non-free and try to make changes to it so that it is free? Is that not what Trisquel is? Didn't they take Ubuntu, remove non-free parts and made their own distro out of it? I need a "cutting edge" system as someone on here said, newer than Trisquel, I am just disappointed why the free software movement cannot have a more "cutting edge" system like Ubuntu is, but without the non-free software. I thought I could install ubuntu 14.04 and simply not run Non-Free software and have a system I knew was free.
That said after I installed Ubuntu I realized it was harder than I thought it would be since they have non-free parts in the regular repos. I thought their repos were devided up better than that, like how Debian does it. Since they're not, I uninstalled it. Instead, I installed Debian.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but Debian is 100% free software in it's based install as long as you use the main repo, there are no non-free blobs in it's kernel, nor are there any other non-free drivers or software. Thus, Debian is a 100% free software OS by default. The only reason the FSF does not support Debian is because they have the contrib and non-free repos, and some parts of the OS suggest you use it in some cases. I know the FSF cannot suggest Debian because of this as it can lead to people to enable such repos and use non-free software, as it's a temptation and it can cause confusion, but because I am aware of the issues I choose *not* to enable the repos and I ignore these suggestions (I didn't get any but for example, flash player suggestions in Iceweasel). I know it's not perfect, but you cannot tell me it's as bad as running Windows. It's all I can use to use free software, and it is 100% free software, which makes me happy. If Trisquel (or Gnewsense) was based on something more modern like Debian Jessie then this probably wouldn't be a problem.
I know Jessie is testing, but it seems stable enough for me to use.
So I installed Debian Wheezy. It does not have an EFI boot loader and my PC has no legacy boot option, so I had to put one in myself that I copied from Trisquel's image. (Which makes things hard for people who are not too tech savy, it means people with modern hardware are helpless to switch, which is what I was complaining about). I had to type a lot of GRUB command just to get the installer to boot which was annoying. Once I installed Debian, again, Xorg wouldn't launch just like Trisquel as the system was too outdated. (Old Xorg and Kernel was 3.2). I changed the repos to jessie, did a dist-upgrade. I do not have contrib. I do not have non-free. I am now running Debian Jessie after a lot of hacking, and I now have Xorg running with full 3D acceleartion with 100% free software. You wont find any non-free software on my machine now.
Anyway, here is the lspci output:
Slot: 00:02.0
Class: VGA compatible controller [0300]
Vendor: Intel Corporation [8086]
Device: ValleyView Gen7 [0f31]
SVendor: Acer Incorporated [ALI] [1025]
SDevice: Device [0845]
Rev: 0c
The thing that frustrates me is I find a lot of the other FSF approved free software distros do not make it easy to install. Debian was the easiest I could get, I am not a developer, only a hobbiest. All of my hardware runs on free software, the graphics and the Wifi module (atheros and intel), but there is no FSF approved OS that easily works with this hardware as it's "cutting edge". This cuts off a lot of people from switching. If someone like the FSF would back a true free software system based on something with newer software, like one based on Debian Jessie, then I would know it would get lots of support because it a.) would be modern with good hardware support, and b.) would be backed by a big orginzation. I think it would be nice if the FSF would do that, it would make life easier for a lot of non-techies and people like me who barely knows what they're doing.
So with that said, I think Parabola would probably work since it's based on Arch, but I do not have it downloaded. I may try it later, but Debian seems to be running nicely now :)
Good to know that your problem is solved without having to use nonfree software :)
Debian does a much better job than Ubuntu at separating free and nonfree software (and that's why it's my distro of choice on arm, which none of the FSF-endorsed distros support)
Not really solved perfectly but it'll do for now I guess until Trisquel 7 is out, haha.
I'm hoping the Trusty enablement pack might fix the issue but I don't know.
>If looks are important, install the latest Elementary OS (Luna) and then run the Ubuntu to Trisquel conversion script from https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/migrate-ubuntu-trisquel-without-reinstalling
>
>Another route is to install Trisquel 6 and then install elementary-desktop from the official PPA: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-os/+archive/stable
>
>You may not get as good of an experience initially without tweaks if you go the PPA route, but at least there are options.
Not an issue about looks but just trying to get a system to work with acceleration as I know it *can* work with effort, I just am not that good with handing Xorg configs and whatnot. I actually am a KDE kind of guy, have used it for a long time and am use to it, plus it can be made to look decent too haha.
That said, even if I were to install Elementary, it would still have the same issue of Trisquel where it wont boot to an X server, I'd still have to update the kernel after converting to Trisquel and I'd still have the same issue I believe.
> Parabola GNU/Linux supports very recent hardware. It is not as user-friendly as Trisquel but it actually is a good point if you have the time (believe me: unless you got unemployed, you have more time while being a student than anytime after until retirement) and desire to learn more about the administration of a GNU/Linux system.
I could install Parabola and I probably will sometime. I can install packages with a package manager so it shouldn't be too hard, I've used Arch a long time ago so it should be a easy transition. I still love Debian based systems like Trisquel as I adore aptitude and I know the ins and outs of it though.
> Whining doesn't help. I don't see either of your names on the Trisquel donate list.
I don't mean to "whine" as you say, I just feel the community is very fragmented, and I think the FSF have lost focus on actual software development. Does it really make sense to campaign heavy to tell the public to switch to free software when most new modern PCs with Intel chips wont even boot with the easiest distro around (Trisquel)? I'm not saying it to slam Trisquel, I appreciated how how it is to develop something so big as this, but I recognize that if the community wanted a more modern system, if we could work together better and the FSF could pitch in and help things would be a lot easier, and then it would mean more people could switch. Right now it's like putting the cart before the horse. "Switch to free software!" they say, and then when people do try to, the OS they picked doesn't support their hardware, even though it is supported. Technology changes a lot, that's why projects like Ubuntu release every 6 months, to keep up with hardware and to keep things moving ahead.
I would be happy to donate to Trisquel, and someday I intend to as I believe in the project (I do not have any money now), but even if I did donate, I don't think it will speed anything up, which disappoints me, thanks to how fragmented the community is. We have so many distros and so little time to keep up. The hardware drivers, like that from Intel are available, but free software distros cannot keep up as well due to lack of time people can put into them as there is just not enough funding.
If the FSF backed a system that they could hire a couple developers, I could easily support them as many people do the FSF already and they could have the funds to really push out a modern, easy to use OS very often. Parabola is hard to use, if there was a Debian based system that updated every 6 months like Ubuntu and was free software, then hardware support would be great and this wouldn't be a problem. As it is now, Debian is the best I can do, as they have their testing branch with modern hardware support. It's not the best, since some of their software suggests non-free software, but it works if you know what you're doing and choose not to use non-free repos.
I read it took something like a year for Trisquel 6 to come out since Ubuntu 12.04. This is sad, as a year is a long time for software and hardware support. It should be more like a month or two apart at most, and if Trisquel had more support, then it could be done. The FSF has the ability to help with this support, but they don't do software anymore, all they do is campaign. Which is putting the cart before the horse.
>Yeah, I feel the same way.
>Convincing people of the benefits of free software is not difficult (at least this is my experience).
>But I as soon as they ask for a free alternative for windows or apple I get into trouble.
>I think no one of my friends will be happy with trisquel since there are too many problems to deal with (hardware support, flash problem etc.).
>The fsf raised lots of money last year and all they do is campaigning and making festivals.
That's exactly what I'm saying. Campaigning is good, but the lack of support for hardware is a fault that is hard to deal with, especially when there's no reason why the hardware shouldn't work.
I understand that some hardware cannot work, like AMD GPUs and Broadcom Wifi due to non-free hardware. There is nothing we can do about that, other than campaign and tell users to buy systems with Intel. What is annoying is when people *do* buy systems with Intel and Atheros that does work with free software in theory, but due to the lack of support from the community due to fragmentation, etc, all the OSes are too outdated to support hardware that can work with a little effort.
As for flash, I wish it would die. While it's annoying, I think people who really want freedom can avoid flash if they have to and if they are taught the importance of freedom. I don't have flash on my system at all. But when the hardware that is suppose to work doesn't work, and the only reason for it is because the OSes are too outdated, that's an issue that should be a non-issue, and would be a non-issue with effort if the community wanted to Unify to fix it.
I am a translator!
jsbean, my recommendation is never to buy recent hardware as it isn't always well supported by free software when it is released (not all bugs are ironed out yet or it isn't supported in older software or the older software requires configuration in order to use the new hardware). You can always buy second hand computers or refurbished ones and it is usually much cheaper too - for instance the gluglug x60 is only around 200 pounds and also comes with a free BIOS.
If you are looking for a larger screen like your Acer laptop then a refurbished T60 is also much cheaper and it can be used with a much better screen than yours (up to QXGA resolution - 2048x1536). I'm currently using a T60 with a QXGA screen and it works very well with Trisquel.
I encountered similar problems to yours in the past. For instance, in order to get my webcamera to work on my old laptop in GNU/Linux I needed to compile a free driver for it as it wasn't supported by the kernel I was using.
Regarding Parabola: If you use it you must update it at least once every month or two - otherwise you'll have a system that you can no longer install binary packages on. Bear in mind that it is a rolling release so the system requires more effort to maintain. There is actually a video covering the installation process online here:
http://alfplayer.com.ar/parabola/other/videos/
The bios issue is one that I would like to overcome, but I guess it's not necessarily important as it's not something I change. I don't want an old outdated system that doesn't have any 3D acceleration (I don't know the specs on the Gluglug) but I know there are systems that do, such as those from ThinkPenguin. I don't want to downgrade. If Intel's hardware works with free software then why avoid it, it's far superior than an older computer.
I have another computer here that has a broadcom wifi chip so I bought a USB wifi dongle that is Atheros. I had to compile the drivers for it to work, I am capable of compiling something like that, but for this issue the OS is just too old, and I think it's really unfortunate that it has to be as old as it is.
I am a translator!
The gluglug X60 also supports 3D acceleration. I personally don't understand the hype surrounding new processors - for me a computer from 5 years ago is good enough as long as the screen has high enough resolution (your Acer laptop I would find unusable because of its low 1366x768 resolution which is very very low for a 15.6" screen).
Thanks for that, I wish they would elaborate more on the site as I can't find specs specifically as to what type of CPU and hardware they have.
I don't look for fancy, I can't afford it anyway, 1366x768 works fine for me, I just don't want something as slow as something like the Lemote haha, and I don't want something that is ancient looking or "big" in size if I can help it.
I bought this PC specifically because it had Atheros wifi and Intel graphics and it was relatively new hardware, next time I'll probably try to get something a little more "set in stone" and not as "cutting edge". This system works though which makes me happy with Jessie, and I'll be eagerly waiting Trisquel 7 :)
The next time I get a computer I hope to save some money and get one with a faster CPU (maybe one from ThinkPengiun) as it shows when editing audio in Audacity on this one compared to other PCs I've used, though this one is definitely faster than my last PC i had. Thing is I have no credit card and I find ThinkPengiun's PCs are more expensive than others you pay the "Microsoft Tax" on, which is unfortunate.
I am a translator!
Well with such a low resolution screen you are limited to other things, e.g. you cannot view 1080P movies without downscaling them, you cannot edit and view high resolution pictures since most of the information will not be kept at that resolution, you cannot write documents or surf the web without scrolling a lot etc.
1080p is not happening here. I barely get 1Mbps anyway, haha so typically I can hardly watch a video on youtube at 360p, let alone 1080 or even 720. 480 doesn't even work :P. Torrents do not work well on this connection so I don't do that, and I have no intentions of buying BluRay discs. I know about limitations with a low res, but i'm not picky about that all I care about is if the system works with free software, and this laptop gets the job done. I have a desktop system anyway that has a much better resolution anyway.
You don't need to downgrade what you already have (just waiting will give you support from the stable systems), but when it's time to get a new PC, getting something that's been out for a while is going to be a lot less hassle than something very recent.
About whining: I don't think he was talking to you. He was talking to quantumgravity.
Sorry for taking so long to answer. I've had a lot of activism to do
lately with the knowledge society project here in Ecuador.
El 23/04/14 10:21, name at domain escribió:
> You seem to think I do not care about freedom and free software which
> is like putting words in my mouth. That's what offends me because you
> make it sound like I'm willing to sacrifice my freedom for
> convienience which I do not want to do. The reason I was here was
> because I wanted a free software OS. What is wrong with me trying to
> use a Distro that is non-free and try to make changes to it so that it
> is free? Is that not what Trisquel is? Didn't they take Ubuntu, remove
> non-free parts and made their own distro out of it? I need a "cutting
> edge" system as someone on here said, newer than Trisquel, I am just
> disappointed why the free software movement cannot have a more
> "cutting edge" system like Ubuntu is, but without the non-free
> software. I thought I could install ubuntu 14.04 and simply not run
> Non-Free software and have a system I knew was free.
I am sorry. I have re-read your message and in fact, you do value
freedom: "Intel Chips do work in freedom, including the one I have,
unfortunately Trisquel and all the other distros do not seem to keep up
with hardware support. Bummer, I'm going to have to install Ubuntu
14.04. Perhaps I can remove some non-free packages after? At least it
works and is better than Windows :/ " But removing non-free software is
not that easy. When you have learned, it is easier. Give it a try by
reading about the way it is done in Trisquel and then helping out with
the process.
The easiest way to be free is to be careful when choosing new hardware.
Nevertheless, there are ways to solve SOME hardware issues. And some of
them are easier while some are harder.
> That said after I installed Ubuntu I realized it was harder than I
> thought it would be since they have non-free parts in the regular
> repos. I thought their repos were devided up better than that, like
> how Debian does it. Since they're not, I uninstalled it. Instead, I
> installed Debian.
Better for your freedom!
> Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but Debian is 100% free software in it's
> based install as long as you use the main repo, there are no non-free
> blobs in it's kernel, nor are there any other non-free drivers or
> software. Thus, Debian is a 100% free software OS by default. The only
> reason the FSF does not support Debian is because they have the
> contrib and non-free repos, and some parts of the OS suggest you use
> it in some cases. I know the FSF cannot suggest Debian because of this
> as it can lead to people to enable such repos and use non-free
> software, as it's a temptation and it can cause confusion, but because
> I am aware of the issues I choose *not* to enable the repos and I
> ignore these suggestions (I didn't get any but for example, flash
> player suggestions in Iceweasel). I know it's not perfect, but you
> cannot tell me it's as bad as running Windows. It's all I can use to
> use free software, and it is 100% free software, which makes me happy.
> If Trisquel (or Gnewsense) was based on something more modern like
> Debian Jessie then this probably wouldn't be a problem.
We cannot assure that Trisquel is 100% free. We do our best for it to be
free. But we always find non-free parts. We do not check Debian. For
free GNU distros it is a critical bug to include non-free software. For
Debian it isn't.
> I know Jessie is testing, but it seems stable enough for me to use.
That is not a big issue. Freedom is a bigger issue than stability.
> So I installed Debian Wheezy. It does not have an EFI boot loader and
> my PC has no legacy boot option, so I had to put one in myself that I
> copied from Trisquel's image. (Which makes things hard for people who
> are not too tech savy, it means people with modern hardware are
> helpless to switch, which is what I was complaining about). I had to
> type a lot of GRUB command just to get the installer to boot which was
> annoying. Once I installed Debian, again, Xorg wouldn't launch just
> like Trisquel as the system was too outdated. (Old Xorg and Kernel was
> 3.2). I changed the repos to jessie, did a dist-upgrade. I do not have
> contrib. I do not have non-free. I am now running Debian Jessie after
> a lot of hacking, and I now have Xorg running with full 3D
> acceleartion with 100% free software. You wont find any non-free
> software on my machine now.
I wouldn't assure that. But definitely, with Debian you are better than
with Ubuntu. Nevertheless, don't put down your guard so easily.
> Anyway, here is the lspci output:
>
> Slot: 00:02.0
> Class: VGA compatible controller [0300]
> Vendor: Intel Corporation [8086]
> Device: ValleyView Gen7 [0f31]
> SVendor: Acer Incorporated [ALI] [1025]
> SDevice: Device [0845]
> Rev: 0c
>
h-node.com says the following when inserting your data in the part where
it says "paste the output of the lspci command:
lspci -vmmnn":
The following devices has not been found in the database:
can you please insert them?
*videocard* - ValleyView Gen7
* *device type:* VGA compatible controller
* *vendor:* Intel Corporation
* *VendorID:ProductID code of the device*: 8086:0f31
So we have no info from h-node. But you have not sent us the other info
I asked you. It should be done on Trisquel because it will be the only
one that will report the problem:
dmesg | grep -i firmware
Another option is to add the linux-Libre kernel from the .deb package.
It will also report when it will not load non-free software.
> The thing that frustrates me is I find a lot of the other FSF approved
> free software distros do not make it easy to install. Debian was the
> easiest I could get, I am not a developer, only a hobbiest. All of my
> hardware runs on free software, the graphics and the Wifi module
> (atheros and intel), but there is no FSF approved OS that easily works
> with this hardware as it's "cutting edge". This cuts off a lot of
> people from switching. If someone like the FSF would back a true free
> software system based on something with newer software, like one based
> on Debian Jessie, then I would know it would get lots of support
> because it a.) would be modern with good hardware support, and b.)
> would be backed by a big orginzation. I think it would be nice if the
> FSF would do that, it would make life easier for a lot of non-techies
> and people like me who barely knows what they're doing.
What could you contribute to make this possible? Everyone can chip in.
Trisquel is much easier than the RedHat that I tried in 1999. It would
be nice to have more help than complaints. I understand your
frustrations. But please understand that we have to cope with many more
than you. Please give us a hand and also contribute to make us feel the
tough job we do is worth it. That someone thinks that what we do is cool
at least regardless that it doesn't even feed us.
> So with that said, I think Parabola would probably work since it's
> based on Arch, but I do not have it downloaded. I may try it later,
> but Debian seems to be running nicely now :)
If you could not configure video in Trisquel, Parabola would be much
worse for you. Parabola is cutting edge. But it was made to like a
hot-rod...DIY. It is great for learning how the operating system works.
--
Saludos libres,
Quiliro Ordóñez
600 8579
jsebean
Reinstall Trisquel as it is. avoid using the linux-libre kernel, this kernel is not that well supported.
In my opinion is just a shaby kernel. Use the main one from trisquel cd installation not the bull-crap linux-libre kernel.
I had the same problem before with an 1-3 desktop that I assemble together 3 months ago.
As far as I understand, the kernel "from Trisquel CD" is the Linux-libre one. Rubén Rodríguez and Jason Self use the same deblobbing scripts (initially written by Alexandre Oliva with the early help of Jeff Moe from BLAG). In fact, Rubén is even acknowledged in the script released by the Linux-libre project: http://linux-libre.fsfla.org/pub/linux-libre/releases/3.14.1-gnu/deblob-3.14 (fifth line)
You don't seem to understand though. If I do not install linux-libre's latest kernel then the Xorg server will not launch. Trisquel 6 "as it is" does not work whatsoever. And even after I update the kernel, I get no 3D acceleration due to configuration issues that I have no idea how to overcome with Xorg. And it should work, because other free software systems will work with it.
Debian Jessie works out of the box with 3D Acceleration, I'm running KDE on it. You have to be careful about a few things here and there, such as make sure you don't add contrib and non-free, and make sure you don't click the install button on flash player prompts, but it gets the job does as Debian in it's base is completely free.
You also should be carful about kde offering some media codecs or widgets (don't know about this in detail) which might be proprietary.
I've heard that kde is doing this from time to time.
But beside of this you should be fine with debian jessie.
I never install anything that is from non-free and contrib, if it involves me having to add those repos then I don't do it. That said I'd like to know if anyone knows what kind of proprietary codecs KDE may suggest, I believe it may suggest flash player on it's browser but that can be avoided, of course.
I personally do not concern myself of software patents when it comes to mp3 support, for example, as I am under the impression my country does not recognize them anyway, and even if it did if I really went full force to obey software patents then I wouldn't be able to use a computer at all.
I am a member!
Hi jsebean,
I just tried to search your graphics card from www.h-node.org and it seems that it is not reported. Could you report it? It would be very useful to other people. Your comments would be especially useful in the comment section since you managed to solve your problem.
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