Icedove Mail suggests amazon.com as search engine
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Should this be reported.
I find this exceptionally strange considering FSF is using Icedove as an example in their "email self defense" https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/en/
:/
I forgot a question mark after the first sentence.
Should this be reported?
name at domain wrote:
> Should this be reported.
>
> I find this exceptionally strange considering FSF is using Icedove as an
> example in their "email self defense" https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/en/
What do you think ought to be reported and to whom?
As I understand it Icedove is no longer supported because Debian
distributes Mozilla Thunderbird. Debian says the Debian Software Freedom
Guidelines are met[1] and they moved users back to Thunderbird. Is Icedove
receiving updates as Icedove? Was there something to Icedove other than
branding? If there is an ongoing Icedove project, do Icedove maintainers
care about the issue at the heart of your report?
[1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=816679
Also, is this an issue concerning Trisquel GNU/Linux or is this an issue
concerning software freedom generally? If it's the latter, consider
replying to name at domain instead this mailing list. As
I understand it, name at domain is for discussions of
issues to do with Trisquel GNU/Linux.
Since you mention the FSF's pointer to Icedove, it's worth mentioning that
Icedove might be no longer supported and shouldn't be on that FSF page.
That would be worth reporting to the FSF.
The FSF apparently has different and ongoing concerns regarding Mozilla
Thunderbird. From https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Icedove:
> Why not recommend Thunderbird? As explained in our Free Software
> Definition[1], all four freedoms must be available on both a commercial
> and non-commercial basis. Mozilla's trademark policy serves to limit
> Freedom 2 to gratis distribution only, making the software nonfree.
[1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
I have my own reservations about that directory entry from the FSF. The
download pointer on that page is confusing. This page calls Thunderbird
nonfree and then points readers to
https://archive.mozilla.org/pub/thunderbird/releases/latest/ to download
Thunderbird (indirectly via following directions in a readme.txt file).
Calling Thunderbird nonfree lumps Thunderbird in with programs one isn't
permitted to inspect, modify, or share. It seems to me that if Debian can
make Icedove (a Thunderbird derivative) can be free and thus worthy of
mentioning by name in https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/en/ it ought to be
more clearly separated from a program such as Microsoft Outlook which users
are not permitted to inspect, modify, or share.
"Calling Thunderbird nonfree lumps Thunderbird in with programs one isn't permitted to inspect, modify, or share."
Sure; inspect, modify, or share reflects back on the four freedoms. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
And, thinking on those four freedoms, a given person needs all four of them for that person to have freedom with a particular program.
As we read in to the Free Software Definition we have "'Free software' does not mean 'noncommercial'. A free program must be available for commercial use, commercial development, and commercial distribution."
The FSF explains why Thunderbird falls short on the "share" part of the freedoms: One isn't allowed to share Thunderbird. At least, not fully in the way that the FSF would want (to share exact copies both commercially and non-commercially, given the comment in the Free Software Definition about free software does not mean noncommercial.) Sharing copies both commercially and noncommercially would, therefore, be part of freedom #2. So it could be said that you either don't get freedom #2 (since you can't share it commercially) or that you only get half of freedom 2 (since you can share it non-commercially.)
So you only get 3 or 3.5 of the 4 freedoms, depending on how you count.
Yes, there may be other programs that fall even shorter of providing all four freedoms. Maybe they'd only provide 2 or 1 of the freedoms (or maybe even none at all.) But does it matter how far they fall short of providing all four? Whether a given program provides a given person with 0, 1, 2, 3 or 3.5 freedoms, it's still less than 4.
What else does one call a program that provides less than all four freedoms? "Non-free" is a common term. "Proprietary" is another.
This is interesting.
Why is Icdedove and Thunderbird included in Trisquel then?
And furthermore... why does FSF use Icedove and Thunderbird in their email self defense instructions? :P lol
Icedove is a modified version of Thunderbird. It's common to have to modify programs in order to fix freedom problems. Look at the Trisquel Helper scripts and you can find all sorts of examples. Icedove does provide all four freedoms. So, given that it's free software, there should be no issue with people using it.
Does Trisquel actually provide an actual copy of Thunderbird? In looking through my package manager it seems to provide a transitional thing for people to request Thunderbird but actually get Icedove. Notice how the package manager says "Note, selecting 'icedove' instead of 'thunderbird'":
apt install thunderbird
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Note, selecting 'icedove' instead of 'thunderbird'
icedove is already the newest version (1:52.7.0+build1-0ubuntu0.16.04.1+8.0trisquel1).
If you somehow find an actual copy of Thunderbird in Trisquel please report it as a freedom issue so that it can be fixed.
Allright, that is really strange.
I installed Trisquel 8 last night (old copy of Trisquel 8 though), and then updated it and Thunderbird is installed by default and very visible in my start menu :/
> Thunderbird is installed by default and very visible in my
> start menu :/
Do you mean that the item in your start menu is called "Thunderbird" and/or had the Thunderbird logo? If so, this should be reported as an issue under the "branding" tag.
Yeah, in my start menu under the Internet group I have Thunderbird and Icedove, both with their own logo
> Yeah, in my start menu under the Internet group I have Thunderbird and
> Icedove, both with their own logo
If you use the Thunderbird launcher, does it launch Thunderbird or Icedove?
Thunderbird
That's strange. If you uninstall thunderbird are you able to install it again?
Huh..
When I uninstalled it through synaptic package manager it disappeared.
So no, I am not able to install it again.
And when I try
$ sudo apt install thunderbird
I get the thing you have guys have been talking about:
"Note, selecting 'icedove' instead of 'thunderbird'"
But why I had the package in the first place... I have no idea. I think maybe because I installed from a relatively old T8 image and updated afterwards. Instead downloading fresh image.
> But why I had the package in the first place... I have no idea. I think
> maybe because I installed from a relatively old T8 image and updated
> afterwards. Instead downloading fresh image.
I do remember being able to install Thunderbird at one point when Trisquel 8 was in beta, so perhaps you installed Thunderbird before that issue was fixed.
"What else does one call a program that provides less than all four freedoms? "Non-free" is a common term. "Proprietary" is another."
Just another thought I had: Regardless of what term someone might want to use, one thing that we shouldn't call programs that fall short of providing all four freedoms is "free software." So as to avoid lumping them in with programs that are.
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