No wireless, No Trisquel

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Orang_Gila
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Joined: 02/24/2012

I assessed over 24 distros last year, Trisquel 4.0.1 can second from the top, just under Debian 6.0.0, but unfortunately one of my main manditory requires in the assessment was full network functionality. We recently purchased a older laptop ASUS G1sn-X1 which was a gamers computer in its day. Unfortunately it uses the Intel Intel Wireless WiFi Link 4965AGN chip-set and unless Trisquel 5 or some other "useable" GNU/libre-linux system creates a driver to support for it, means Trisquel will be dropped from our list of useable distros. Most unfortunate, because I can see that there has been excellent effort put into this project. Trisquel and gNewSense were the best from the list offered on the Free Software Foundations website last year.

ASUS G1Sn-X1
NVIDIA
64bit
Intel PRO/Wireless 4965AGN

NO wireless drivers (iwl4965)
-restrictions on binaries means that firmware-iwlwifi will not be supported:
Binary firmware for Intel Wireless 3945, 4965 and 5000-series cards
http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/firmware-iwlwifi
http://www.ubuntuupdates.org/package/core/precise/main/base/linux-firmware

SirGrant

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Joined: 07/27/2010

Firstly, please do not advertise non-free software on our forum/mailing list.

User freedom is priority #1 for this distro. It is unfortunate when hardware won't work without proprietary software. It isn't a compromise we can make though to include non-free software just to get hardware to work. You can find information on wireless devices that will work on h-node's hardware database and can buy cards from thinkpenguin.

Please see the documentation Essays about Free Software to learn about Free Software and why we are so committed to protecting your user freedom.

Orang_Gila
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Joined: 02/24/2012

Instead of throwing this Intel wifi card in the landfill, I would be willing to send a money-order, paid in advance for $100USD, to anyone who could reverse engineer me a "freedom driver" for this Intel card. ThinkPenguin has a card listed for $36USD, so I think that would be fair as I am of limited means and willing to donate this amount to a good cause. I'm not joking.

Chris

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Joined: 04/23/2011

It won't be reverse engineered. The task is non-trivial. The way to resolve these types of issues is to band together and support free software compatible hardware. With enough people purchasing the same hardware it can be better supported. It also helps to penalise those who aren't don't as good a job.

In many cases there aren't actually any free software compatible solutions. Which makes it all the more important that even where something is fairly easy to get elsewhere purchasing from companies like ours can make the difference later for devices you may want and otherwise not be able to get. There are at least a few wifi cards for instance that until now had no solution or will soon have no solution (if we didn't/don't step in).

Even with all the wifi adapters we sell it isn't anywhere near the number that are needed to put a dent in funding or convincing atheros/or another chipset manufacturer to release free drivers. We are talking with design firms though so that we have a better idea what numbers are needed and what goals are feasible. It will help us determine which projects to focus on.

That said I think it will be possible in the future to have an influence on the market. As long as people continue to make purchasing decisions based on freedom rather than trying to get everything under the sun to work (which never ends well anyway- even on non-free distributions- in particular over time).

In three years we have gone from having a small catalog of free software compatible hardware, to having a decent size, to having a large catalog (competitively speaking). It is by far the largest selection for GNU/Linux anywhere, and the only real catalog of free software compatible hardware. People are making a huge difference even now. It's giving more people the *ability* to use free software that could never have gotten hardware working before. Numbers matter. Both from our ability to get things done and the ability to influence and get our objectives met (the release of or development of free drivers/firmware/software). With more dollars coming in the more hardware we can work on and the better the support will be.

If you make a purchase from http://libre.thinkpenguin.com/ we donate 25% of the profits to the Trisquel project. This is one of the projects which needs funding. We also donate 10% of sales from one of our channels to the free software foundation. We are also giving people the opportunity to donate 10% to the free software foundation from https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/free-software-foundation

The later link is actually linked to from advertising we are doing elsewhere (well, sponsoring of another project- which links to us) and most of those users are new to the concept of free software.

Adrian Malacoda

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Joined: 12/26/2010

Hello,

My last laptop had Intel wifi too. I purchased myself a D-Link DWA-642 device, which is known to work with free software. According to what I've read, your laptop has an Express Card slot. A D-Link DWA-643 wifi card (http://www.h-node.org/wifi/view/en/78/AR5418+AR5133+AR5008-DWA-643-Atheros-9000-series-chipsets-based-PCI-MINI-PCI-E-802-11a-b-g) will fit nicely in there, and you can probably find one for under $25. The ThinkPenguin cards will run you about twice as much, but Trisquel does get 25% of that (Personally I prefer using PCMCIA/ExpressCard wifi devices to USB wifi, so I can save one extra USB port for other things - but that's just me).

Chris

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Joined: 04/23/2011

Any Atheros Mini PCI, Mini PCIe, PCI, or Mini PCIe card in theory should work. We have run into some cards that are more problematic though. While we are donating 25% to Trisquel it isn't really just 25% going to a free software cause. There are other projects we are working on. Try finding a low profile atheros card for instance that works well with free software. It really isn't practical to get anything elsewhere. If you are in Australia you could order a bracket for a TP-Link card which works. Other than that you are pretty much out of luck. I forget if the TP-Link card was one of the cards which were problematic. I know in one form (PCI/PCIe) it was a problem on some machines.

Anyway. We have a solid solution to it now available. Well, one of them. We should have a solution for both PCI and PCIe for low-profile systems soon. Currently just one is listed. We have a factory making brackets for the other.

Orang_Gila
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Joined: 02/24/2012

I wonder what the new owner (Qualcomm) of Atheros's has in store for freedom drivers for GNU/Linux? I'd rather pay the $100USD and share a driver with everyone. I'm not here to be a bummer to everyone, I just want access to my current hardware.... https://trisquel.info/files/Intel_Wifi-4965AGN.jpg

SirGrant

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Joined: 07/27/2010

Don't get us wrong. We totally understand wanting your hardware to work. IMO (no stats to back it up) wireless cards not working is the number one question we get here from new members.

Here is some basic math on the matter. In the USA the federal minimum wage is $7.25 hour. At minimum wage that would pay for 13-14 hours of developer time. Firstly that isn't enough time to reverse engineer the drivers/firmware (if it was they would already exist). Secondly, a person with the skills required to do that I'm sure would want to be paid more then minimum wage.

Unfortunately $100 isn't really going to cut it for reverse engineering it. As Chris said it is a non-trivial task. Take gnash for example the GNU replacement for adobe flash player. Adobe flash is on version 11 I think while gnash only supports up to flash 9 support. This is because reverse engineering is hard. Secondly, adobe has in their license that you can't reverse engineer it. That means the devs have to do it and they can't even use the non-free one as an example. Reverse engineering takes very specialised know-how. If it could be done for $100 it would have been done already. The amount needed to do it as my estimate would be in the thousands for sure.

If you are committed to putting money which is fine I would advise you to do it as a crowd-funded task. The idea is that users basically set a bounty on something they want done. So lets say they set the bounty on this to $50,000. You could contribute your $100 dollars to the bounty and so could other users. If the task never gets done then you never have to pay the $100. They only collect if the task is completed.

levl

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Joined: 09/23/2011

I think that shelling out an additional $36 is not too much to ask for in order to maintain the freedom of your software. I agree it is inconvenient, and I do not think that anyone will argue against that fact, but we all believe that maintaining the freedom of our software (and eventually all of our hardware) is something that we are willing to undergo minor inconveniences for.

Buying a card from ThinkPenguin will not only allow you to access the internet wirelessly with your current hardware it will also help to support trisquel (since they make a donation of all purchases made from the main page link).

Trisqul and other distributions like it are not for everyone. However, I believe that promoting software freedom will benefit everyone, so that is why I continue to use and support trisquel. I think reverse engineering this card would benefit everyone as well, however as SirGrant pointed out this is not a trivial task and $100 just wont cut it. The crow sourcing is a good idea, maybe this project will kick off since lots of people are stuck with intel cards.

I think for the future, the best option would be to only buy hardware that supports free software. This can be really hard to do, especially with laptops - I am glad that Thinkpenguin and other companies like it are around so that it makes this task simple and affordable.

Chris

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Joined: 04/23/2011

I'm not sure about the feasibility of reverse engineering an Intel wireless chipset although there was one wireless chipset that was reverse engineered many years ago. The catch is I think it was only the driver. Newer cards would also need firmware reverse engineered and I believe that is an even harder task. The amount of time it took to reverse engineer that old chipset was years. Even with the source code it can take years to get a relatively stable driver through from development to inclusion in distributions.

Even if you have $20,000 US to donate to the cause I'm a bit sceptical that there is going to be a solution. We are working on solving one of these issues and I'm still waiting to hear back from those with the technical expertise and costs.

levl

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Joined: 09/23/2011

Chris,

You are absolutely right. Honestly, I think it would just be better if we stuck to hardware that was already compatible. That way we can pool our limited financial and technical resources to issues that are a little bit more important and do not have such a simple alternatives. If intel, nvidia, etc.. do not want to play nicely that is there problem.