Non-free software?
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Hi, I am about to install the new Trisquel 4.5 as my main distro :) I just had a question. I am sure it is possible, but what are your opinions on people installing non-free software on a free distro like Trisquel? (Yes I am talking about free as in freedom.) Will you guys hate me if I do? :( I have some Linux games that I might like to play...
El 26/03/11 23:29, name at domain escribió:
> Hi, I am about to install the new Trisquel 4.5 as my main distro :) I
> just had a question. I am sure it is possible, but what are your
> opinions on people installing non-free software on a free distro like
> Trisquel? (Yes I am talking about free as in freedom.) Will you guys
> hate me if I do? :( I have some Linux games that I might like to play...
>
It is irrelevant if we hate you or not. The question is if you would not
mind playing while being a slave.
Another question would be if you would promote non free software. Then
you would not only do harm to yourself but to others too.
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> I have some Linux games that I might like to play...
>
We call GNU the OS. If you mean the kernel, Linux is the term we use for
that.
There sure are some good games for GNU.
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Sorry, after years of using the term "Linux" I sometimes forget to use "GNU/Linux"
El 26/03/11 23:55, name at domain escribió:
> Sorry, after years of using the term "Linux" I sometimes forget to use
> "GNU/Linux"
>
It is not only about correct etymology. The terms convey the
philosophies behind them. That is why we stess it out. GNU promotes the
philosophy of freedom while Linux promotes the philosophy of gratuity.
Thank you for helping us promote freedom. :-)
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We're not going to hate you. You can install whatever you want to on your system. Trisquel just doesn't make non-free software available in its repositories. It's not like the free software gods are going to cast you into the void for installing Adobe Flash. That being said, we're not going to give you any advice on installing non-free programs on Trisquel.
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It's against our rules for us to give you advice on installing or using non-free software, but I wouldn't criticize you for installing a nonfree game or something on top of Trisquel. Life is full of compromises.
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Upon checking their licenses, I actually realized that a lot of the games I have are legitimately free software. Maybe running 100% free is possible after all ;)
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Can you list the games you play that are free (as in freedom) with a short description. I know very little about free games aside from the few I play on my Openmoko phone such as QtMaze and perhaps a few classic games such as gboggle (why this Boggle game is not included in any repository is beyond me).
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One game I play is Stepmania, which is a DDR (Dance Dance Revolution -- a dancing game) simulation. This probably isn't a good one to get in to because you need to download songs and stuff for it. But if you can find them, the game is free. The license gives you permission to use, modify, and distribute it as long as you include the license. (It is not GPL but appears to follow the 4 freedoms.)
You can find a whole list of potentially-free games if you go here and in the search terms select Distribution Policy = "Freely Distributable" and select Source Code Available = "Yes." Then if you find something you like, download the source code and read the license to make sure it provides you with the 4 freedoms (0: freedom to use, 1: freedom to modify, 2: freedom to distribute original code, 3: freedom to distribute modified code) and that if you do distribute it you are required to keep its license.
Keep in mind even if you find a game like that (I'm sure there are plenty) you may still not be able to use it freely if it requires non-free libraries.
Hope that helps!
To answer your questions:
1) I am sure it is possible, but what are your opinions on people installing non-free software on a free distro like Trisquel?
Yes, it is possible. Most of us won't do it. I don't see a point in using a distro that is all free software and then just installing non-free software. If I was going to do that I would just use something like Ubuntu.
Although I will say running trisquel w/ 1 piece of non-free software (e.g. flash) is better then running all non-free software (e.g. windows). So ultimately do whatever you want. We aren't your boss/mom/overbearing girlfriend/social worker/friend. Don't let a bunch of people on the internet force you to do something you don't want to do. Take our opinions. Mull them over and if you agree great but make sure you reach your own conclusions.
2) Will you guys hate me if I do?
I can't speak for anyone else but why would we hate you? I don't even know you and I have never met you. I don't hate windows or OSX users. Hating someone based on what software they have on their computer is stupid. The only thing is we can't support you with non-free software. You would be on your own there.
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Its up to you where you draw the line. We're not in the business of trying to control your computing (that's what non-free software does), contrary to what some critics tend to say.
But if you choose to use non-free software, we won't help you with that.
Speaking of which, I have a laptop whose wifi card requires non-free firmware. Windows works with it, of course, but I'd rather not use Windows. For the long term I'll buy a freedom respecting wifi card (preferably PCMCIA, if there are any that are freedom-compatible) but for now I'm seriously considering using the proprietary firmware as a short-term solution. I figure it's either that or Windows, so I'd best choose the lesser evil.
(Edit: For anyone who says "if you're going to do that then might as well just use Ubuntu or Windows" let me say something... in the Windows proprietary world and the Ubuntu "open source" world, non-free software is considered a bonus. Choosing to use such an OS also means entering into that kind of environment, whereas simply keeping to Trisquel means you stay in the free-as-in-freedom world and make concessions. This means you're constantly aware that you're compromising, or giving up, and that you're doing it in most minimal way possible. I think it's possible to make such a concession in the short run while keeping freedom as a goal in the long run, much like it's possible to use "open source" in the short run without keeping an eye on freedom)
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My laptop's wifi didn't work either, so I got a cheap Netgear USB adapter for 20 euros. Now wifi works great :)
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As far games go, I don't believe they ought to be free software. Stallman himself stated somewhere that works of general use should be free and so software should be free.
Games are not works of general use (even though they are software). They are pure entertainment and one can work without them just fine. I see no issue at all in using Wine to play commercial games. Buying commercial games doesn't harm the cause of free software either. How should it? There is no monopoly on the gaming market, we have a healthy free market competition there. Hell, some games even ship with special editors that enable users to create modifications!
I'd even go so far, as to tell that consoles are allowed to have proprietary operating systems as long as the console isn't meant to deal with everyday computing like browsing the net and whatnot.
Being unable to change a program that you need for working or simple essential computing may become a problem by threatening your rights as a citizen and a human being. Being unable to change a game to fit your needs is just lessening the entertainment value of the game for you. No moral issue here, not at all. Besides that, games are supposed to be works of art to some point. To wish to make them free and open source is besides the point, you are supposed to look at them as is, it's not an instrument that can only measure it's value in how well it fits your needs.
> Games are not works of general use (even though they are software). They
> are pure entertainment and one can work without them just fine.
We can work without 3d graphics cards, video players, or other things
not needed for typical work. I don't consider it a reason to not have
such things free.
> I see no
> issue at all in using Wine to play commercial games. Buying commercial
> games doesn't harm the cause of free software either. How should it?
They being commercial is completely unrelated. I believe changing them
to not need Wine would be useful, so they being free would be more useful.
> I'd even go so far, as to tell that consoles are allowed to have
> proprietary operating systems as long as the console isn't meant to deal
> with everyday computing like browsing the net and whatnot.
"Isn't meant to" means that their manufactures decide to not allow using
them for it? There are clear problems with that.
> Besides that, games are supposed to be
> works of art to some point. To wish to make them free and open source is
> besides the point, you are supposed to look at them as is, it's not an
> instrument that can only measure it's value in how well it fits your needs.
Software is art. There are beautiful programs like TeX which uses
interesting algorithms designed for it to solve real problems. It's
good that some people modify TeX into programs better for some uses.
With literature making derivative works by changing a part of a book
isn't as useful as writing a new book inspired by the previous one. So
the freedom to modify texts like novels or essays explaining someone's
opinions isn't useful. (It would be different assuming that not
everyone reads the same language.)
Your arguments could apply to game data (although having it free would
make them more fun for some people, e.g. if someone translates it in
their natural language).
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We can work without 3d graphics cards, video players, or other things
not needed for typical work. I don't consider it a reason to not have
such things free.
No we cannot work without 3D graphics cards. Modeling architecture or moving parts of a mechanism in order to understand it better has nothing to do with gaming yet requires 3D rendering.
And video players are needed as well, come on. It's not like we are using them only for watching blockbusters from DVDs, right?
They being commercial is completely unrelated. I believe changing them
to not need Wine would be useful, so they being free would be more useful.
Commercial is not an issue, in fact I meant all the games that are mainstream and aren't licensed under GNU GPL or something similar. And who ever said that being able to play without Wine isn't desirable? Sure it is, but I'll play my games in any way I can, with or without Wine.
"Isn't meant to" means that their manufactures decide to not allow using
them for it? There are clear problems with that.
It means exactly that. What's the issue? I see no problem, my freedom hasn't been harmed if I use a device that isn't meant to access the internet and do my everyday work. Is your freedom harmed just because your TV can't do all that, or your microwave?
Now, if a console is in fact functioning as a computer and not simply like a gaming device anymore, it would be better for it to have a free operating system or else it's taking away freedom from the user.
Software is art. There are beautiful programs like TeX which uses
interesting algorithms designed for it to solve real problems. It's
good that some people modify TeX into programs better for some uses.
Software is art if you look at the code itself. Code is poetry and all that. But while using, no one experiences the art in it, for the user it is just a tool for work. Tools aren't supposed to bring some artistic message, they are supposed to be useful at a particular task. Thus you need the freedom to change it, which of course involves the freedom to study the code and have that same code available.
A game on the other hand is supposed to look in a certain way and deliver a certain gameplay experience. Therefore, you should not be able to easily change it, because changing means destroying it. You would not like it if everyone was able to change, say, Star Wars movies at will and redistribute them just like originals? The changes made in the remasters are awful enough and people complain about them, wouldn't it be even worse if everyone could make his own version and put it out there, so no one could really distinguish where the original is?
> No we cannot work without 3D graphics cards. Modeling architecture or
> moving parts of a mechanism in order to understand it better has nothing
> to do with gaming yet requires 3D rendering.
True for some people. Maybe there are also non-gaming uses of software
written for games (clearly are for 3d rendering algorithms used in games).
> And video players are needed as well, come on. It's not like we are
> using them only for watching blockbusters from DVDs, right?
There are useful jobs done with nearly only texts or speaking to people,
like programming or editing texts. Videos aren't as effective at
teaching people about such things as text. I don't see how this
argument treats games differently than such programs.
> "Isn't meant to" means that their manufactures decide to not allow using
> them for it? There are clear problems with that.
>
> It means exactly that. What's the issue? I see no problem, my freedom
> hasn't been harmed if I use a device that isn't meant to access the
> internet and do my everyday work. Is your freedom harmed just because
> your TV can't do all that, or your microwave?
No problem here, I like using devices designed to do one thing well.
It's different when it is limited by disallowing running certain
programs from it instead of by not having hot and complex chips to run them.
> Software is art if you look at the code itself. Code is poetry and all
> that. But while using, no one experiences the art in it, for the user it
> is just a tool for work. Tools aren't supposed to bring some artistic
> message, they are supposed to be useful at a particular task. Thus you
> need the freedom to change it, which of course involves the freedom to
> study the code and have that same code available.
Are tools for playing games different?
> You would not
> like it if everyone was able to change, say, Star Wars movies at will
> and redistribute them just like originals? The changes made in the
> remasters are awful enough and people complain about them, wouldn't it
> be even worse if everyone could make his own version and put it out
> there, so no one could really distinguish where the original is?
Most free software licenses require marking modified works as different
(e.g. by renaming it or adding a changelog entry). The freedom to copy
unmodified versions would prevent being limited to the newest version
supported by the author (not sure if original Star Wars movies are as
available as the changed ones, but there are books made worse in newer
editions).
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Are tools for playing games different?
Good question, in an ideal situation you would need no tools and just run the game. But in case we need tools to run the games, then it's really hard to tell. You got me there. I guess we should just be happy that Wine is free software.
Most free software licenses require marking modified works as different
(e.g. by renaming it or adding a changelog entry). The freedom to copy
unmodified versions would prevent being limited to the newest version
supported by the author (not sure if original Star Wars movies are as
available as the changed ones, but there are books made worse in newer
editions).
Yes, but a work of art should not be changeable. Games are kind of art, so restrictions on changing aren't a moral issue.
> Yes, but a work of art should not be changeable. Games are kind of art,
> so restrictions on changing aren't a moral issue.
Translating text to other languages and extending fonts to support other
languages are changes which are beneficial to other people and the
original author not always can or wants to do it.
There are free games like Wesnoth which have many user-made
modifications with different play but the same graphics. There are
similar things for GNU FreeDink, although many made before the game data
was freed. I believe their existence is good for the original works.
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Sure there are benefits through translation etc. But you can't be seriously telling me, that having a _game_ untranslated is an ethical issue, because someone has to learn English to play it?
My point is, games aren't works of general use and if they are non-free software it doesn't do the kind of damage that happens, if every other piece of software is non-free. In fact it doesn't do damage at all, it's just a minor inconvenience. The whole moral issue isn't there. But is it more convenient if the game is free software? Yes of course, but it's only about convenience here, nothing else.
> Sure there are benefits through translation etc. But you can't be
> seriously telling me, that having a _game_ untranslated is an ethical
> issue, because someone has to learn English to play it?
I don't agree that "a work of art should not be changeable" for at least
some works of art. In this case it's not a problem, and it would be
good if someone learns English to play a game.
> My point is, games aren't works of general use and if they are non-free
> software it doesn't do the kind of damage that happens, if every other
> piece of software is non-free. In fact it doesn't do damage at all, it's
> just a minor inconvenience. The whole moral issue isn't there. But is it
> more convenient if the game is free software? Yes of course, but it's
> only about convenience here, nothing else.
My point is that games consist of software and data, and the software
part should be free while there are different issues for data.
A work of art should be changeable after a short period of time (say 10 years). The current trend to indefinitely extend copyright is bad. How many masterpieces were in fact derived from other works of Art? Shakespeare has borrowed most of his theme (and some content) from other authors; La Fontaine has mainly re-actualized the Greek poet Esope, rap samples funk, electronic mainly creates from existing sounds/songs, many movies created on the Web reuses existing material, etc. And no, the original piece of work will not disappear behind its derivatives (unless it was mediocre and the derivative have greatly improved upon it).
Only material directly involving the author's ideas (say a manifesto, a political speech, a scientific article, etc.) should never be modifiable. I admit the line between entertainment and ideas may be hard to draw.
And, in all cases, these works should always be freely sharable (at no cost at least). In a society, it does not make any sense to prohibit sharing!
When it comes to video games, it looks clear to me that the design, the music, the story (if any) are entertainment material and need not be free (as in free software). I have not made my mind clear about the rest of the game (e.g., the physics, the 3D engine, etc.).
At 27.03.2011, Igor.Zobin[@nospam] wrote:
> As far games go, I don't believe they ought to be free software. Stallman
> himself stated somewhere that works of general use should be free and so
> software should be free.
On many occasions Stallman have said that games are software, and as
such they should be free software. An example is given how: developers
could and should release the code (as free software) and the data as
separate packages. If I remember correctly, he claims the data (images,
video, sound) are the art not the whole game. I'm sorry could not
provide a link to back up this.
>
> Games are not works of general use (even though they are software). They are
> pure entertainment and one can work without them just fine. I see no issue at
> all in using Wine to play commercial games. Buying commercial games doesn't
> harm the cause of free software either. How should it? There is no monopoly
> on the gaming market, we have a healthy free market competition there. Hell,
> some games even ship with special editors that enable users to create
> modifications!
> I'd even go so far, as to tell that consoles are allowed to have proprietary
> operating systems as long as the console isn't meant to deal with everyday
> computing like browsing the net and whatnot.
The entertainment part comes mostly from the visual and audio effects.
But to achieve this, the software must do its job, to combine them and
run them at the appropriate moment.
Suppose that a group of game developers programmed good artificial
intelligence algorithm, that allows computer players to collectively
solve a task, walk trough a maze, locate a moving target, use web
cameras to recognize movement behaviour etc. etc. The problem does not
matter.
Now imagine that this algorithm is ported or could be directly used with
embedded system or miniature robots or whatever mobile hardware. It
could be used to solve real practical tasks. For example in agriculture,
medicine, automatic cleaning vehicles and so on.
Lets take for example, the situation I described above on a console. If
one has access to the software and could connect custom or general
purpose hardware to some port (RJ45/Ethernet, USB), this could be used
to solve variety of problems. For example while you are playing the game
the external hardware doing some work. Consoles are just locked by
software computers. If you have free software on them you could use them
as general purpose computers. Well maybe not righ out of the box.
Yes, this is all hypothetical, but is still possible. Things not obvious
for you and me, might be an idea for someone else.
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Thanks for all the replies! One clarification I should make is that when I asked "would you hate me if I did" it was more in jest. I didn't really think anyone would reply "yes," lol.
> Hi, I am about to install the new Trisquel 4.5 as my main distro :) I
> just had a question. I am sure it is possible, but what are your
> opinions on people installing non-free software on a free distro like
> Trisquel? (Yes I am talking about free as in freedom.) Will you guys
> hate me if I do? :( I have some Linux games that I might like to
> play...
As far as you don't ask for help installing proprietary software, or
recommend it to others, you are welcome here even if you use Windows. :)
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