(Not Trisquel-related. Free software related) Monitors and more.
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I'm looking for free hardware.
Specifically I am looking for monitors, but in general I'm looking for everything.
As far as I'm aware, the FSF doesn't recommend any specific desktop monitor or company that sell desktop monitor(s).
Is that because all monitors are considered free? Are the monitor not containing enough software in themselves?
FSF have a list called "Recommended Complete Systems", which contain some motherboards, a videocard and a laptop.
https://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/systems
And some of the products at thinkpenguin.com have received FSF's "Respects Your Freedom certification", and they seem to be giving the impression that they are a "free-hardware-vendor". My question being, why are just some of their products receiving the certification?
Long story short:
Are there any hardware vendors out there that solely sell "free-hardware"?
> I'm looking for free hardware.
You could mean a few things by 'free hardware':
(1) hardware that respects the equivalent of the 4 freedoms of software
(2) hardware that can be used without any proprietary software
(3) hardware that is compatible with free sofware (but may require additional proprietary software)
(1) is quite rare compared to (2) and (3).
https://h-node.org is a good resource for (3).
> Is that because all monitors are considered free? Are the
> monitor not containing enough software in themselves?
I'm unaware of any monitors that don't fulfill (2) but can't say for certain.
> FSF have a list called "Recommended Complete Systems", which
> contain some motherboards, a videocard and a laptop.
> https://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/systems
Anything with "Respects your Freedom" certification from FSF fulfills (1) or (2).
> And some of the products at thinkpenguin.com have received FSF's
> "Respects Your Freedom certification", and they seem to be
> giving the impression that they are a "free-hardware-vendor". My
> question being, why are just some of their products receiving
> the certification?
Some ThinkPenguin products, including their WiFi adapters, are RYF certified. Others, like their laptops only fulfill (3). They will not claim RYF certification on any product that has not received it, although they could do a better job clarifying
> Long story short:
> Are there any hardware vendors out there that solely sell "free-hardware"?
Technoethical, in addition to selling RYF hardware also sells some hardware in category (3), but they do an excellent job of detailing all freedom issues so that you know exactly what you are getting and can make an informed decision on whether or not to compromise.
Minifree only sells (1) or (2), but does not offer as many products as Technoethical as a result.
Other freedm-friendly vendors include
- Vikings (they should not claim that coreboot is fully libre, but they offer libreboot which is libre as well)
https://store.vikings.net/index.php?route=common/home
- Libiquity (similar situation to Minifree)
http://www.libiquity.com/
I note that Libiquity sell "ProteanOS" stickers. Is that an operating system, and if so, why isn't it recommended by FSF?
It is FSF-endorsed. https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html
My bad. Is that the OS that come pre-installed on their Taurinus X200?
According to FSF:
" ProteanOS is a new, small, and fast distribution for embedded devices. Its platform configuration feature allows binary packages to be configured at build-time and run-time for different hardware and use cases. "
So their Taurinus X200 is a lightweight pc with limited focus on performance?
Reply update:
Do you have any idea as to why these vendors are not mentioned FSF's website? Seems strange to me.
At least Technoethical, Minifree and Libiquity.
No, it looks like the Taurinus comes with Trisquel. https://shop.libiquity.com/product/taurinus-x200
The FSF appears to endorse individual products from those vendors. I don't see a list of approved vendors and that is probably because they won't want to appear to endorse non-free products by a company who also sells some freedom-respecting products.
A, that makes sense!
A little wierd if you ask me that they are developing ProteanOS and selling Protean stickers, but sell computers with Trisquel :p but hey.. why not though
I would say that every resource/vendor you listed is about (2).
In particular:
The h-node project aims at the construction of a hardware database in order to identify what devices work with a fully free operating system.
https://h-node.org/
All the product software must be free software. The product software includes all software that the seller includes in the product, or provides with the product, or recommends for use in conjunction with the product, or steers users towards installation in the product. However, there is an exception for secondary embedded processors.
There are no proprietary drivers to install or complex installation procedures
http://libre.thinkpenguin.com/
Note: ThinkPenguin's computer have nonfree BIOS and the BIOS runs on the CPU, hence the lack of "Respects Your Freedom" certification for ThinkPenguin's computers.
Technoethical is an online shop that sells hardware compatible with operating systems that fully respect users' freedom as defined by the GNU Project.
https://tehnoetic.com/about_us
Minifree provides secure, privacy-respecting computers with 100% free (as in freedom) software, including the Libreboot BIOS replacement and GNU+Linux operating system, certified by FSF under their Respects Your Freedom certification program.
https://minifree.org/
About monitors, they do not raise any freedom issue I am aware of.
How was your reply any different than the original comment?
Not trying to be rude be you kind of just emphasized what the original commenter said, except that you said that every resource/vendor OC mentioned is about (2). And what did you mean by that, anyway?
I used mason's numbering:
(1) hardware that respects the equivalent of the 4 freedoms of software
(2) hardware that can be used without any proprietary software
(3) hardware that is compatible with free sofware (but may require additional proprietary software)
He wrote that "https://h-node.org is a good resource for (3)", that "Minifree only sells (1) or (2)", etc. IMHO, they all aim at (2), understood as "(2) hardware that can be used with a 100% free operating system" (but that is not all software that runs on a computer, more on that later).
(1) is common-place: it is unusual to be forbidden to use/study/copy/redistribute hardware. Well, except that we do not have copying machines for hardware! But, by (1), I imagine mason was actually thinking of free designs for hardware, documented hardware. Anyway, none of the projects he lists are about that either.
I also believe that mason actually means "(2) hardware that only runs free software on the CPU (BIOS *included*)" and "(3) hardware that only runs free software on the CPU (BIOS *excluded*)". It is indeed an interesting distinction that sets apart RYF hardware from, say, ThinkPenguin hardware. Unfortunately, there is more software besides the operating system and the BIOS. For example in the HDD or SSD firmware.
That said, I do not want to put words in mason's mouth. And we have no real disagreement here. It is just a definition issue: what software are we talking about when we write "without any proprietary software"? https://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/endorsement/criteria (in my previous post, the reference for the quote that misses a reference) is a good read to understand those issues.
> (1) is common-place: it is unusual to be forbidden
> use/study/copy/redistribute hardware. Well, except that we do not have
> copying machines for hardware. But, by (1), I imagine mason was actually
> thinking of free designs for hardware, documented hardware. Anyway, none of
> the projects he lists are about that either.
Yes, I was thinking of the designs as necessary to exercise freedoms 1 and 3 as the source code is in the case of software. If we go with a slighly weaker definition where study and modification are not prevented by 'security' antifeatures or legally forbidden then most hardware qualifies, although I worry that this will no longer be true if Apple has their way.
> I also believe that mason actually means "(2) hardware that only runs free
> software on the CPU (BIOS *included*)" and "(3) hardware that only runs free
> software on the CPU (BIOS *excluded*)". It is indeed an interesting
> distinction that sets apart RYF hardware from, say, ThinkPenguin hardware.
> Unfortunately, there is still proprietary software running. For example in
> the HDD or SSD firmware.
Yes, I was including the BIOS, and in the case of Technoethical's phones the modem. As you point at though that is somewhat of an arbitrary cutoff between categories when there is really more of a gradient. A computer with a proprietary BIOS is for instance less free than one with a libre BIOS but more free than one that does not allow the installation of unauthorized operating systems.
That makes sense, thanks for elaborating:)
> I would say that every resource/vendor you listed is about (2).
Most of the hardware on h-node is (2), but it includes for instance laptops that require a non-free BIOS, which I consider (3). I consider ThinkPenguin's laptops and and TechnoEthical's phones to be (3) for the same reason, even though they sell other products that are (2).
h-node is to list test results (be them bad or good) about hardware and
how well they work with fully free/libre distros and with only
free/libre software, thus in h-node it doesn't matter that much if the
device is RYF-certified or not. Thus, the absense of a given test result
just shows that there is no test made or that the tester didn't register
the results in h-node, not that the thing doesn't work, although there
are places where you can already have some hints of how bad a hardware
is in terms of software freedom.
However, one must note that h-node doesn't really solve the real issues
for reasons I and other people already explained in this forum/mailing
list.
2018-01-09T10:42:01-0800 name at domain wrote:
> You could mean a few things by 'free hardware':
> (1) hardware that respects the equivalent of the 4 freedoms of software
> (2) hardware that can be used without any proprietary software
> (3) hardware that is compatible with free sofware (but may require
> additional proprietary software)
>
> (1) is quite rare compared to (2) and (3).
>
> https://h-node.org is a good resource for (3).
>
>
> I'm unaware of any monitors that don't fulfill (2) but can't say for certain.
>
>
> Anything with "Respects your Freedom" certification from FSF fulfills
> (1) or (2).
>
>
> Some ThinkPenguin products, including their WiFi adapters, are RYF
> certified. Others, like their laptops only fulfill (3). They will not
> claim RYF certification on any product that has not received it,
> although they could do a better job clarifying
>
>
> Technoethical, in addition to selling RYF hardware also sells some
> hardware in category (3), but they do an excellent job of detailing
> all freedom issues so that you know exactly what you are getting and
> can make an informed decision on whether or not to compromise.
>
> Minifree only sells (1) or (2), but does not offer as many products as
> Technoethical as a result.
>
> Other freedm-friendly vendors include
> - Vikings (they should not claim that coreboot is fully libre, but
> they offer libreboot which is libre as well)
> https://store.vikings.net/index.php?route=common/home
> - Libiquity (similar situation to Minifree)
> http://www.libiquity.com/
>
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