Pale Moon dev interested in speaking to FSF - who would be a good FSF person to contact?
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Moonchild said in a recent thread that he's willing to discuss certain matters with an FSF representative. I would imagine that it may be something along the lines of officially producing a more libre version of Pale Moon without the trademark restrictions. This is something that Trisquel forum member @nparafe has been discussing with him. Is there a good person at FSF to bring this up with?
Craig Topham was involved in the most recent discussion about removing Pale Moon from the Free Software Directory but I imagine Craig to be very busy, and talking to the FSF directly isn't necessary since the problems with Pale Moon are known.
For example: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/directory-discuss/2022-12/msg00005.html
Where Craig links to https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/gnu-linux-libre/2011-08/msg00014.html
Craig later confirmed in another communication medium (IRC) that the FSF position on this has remained unchanged:
Per https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Talk:Pale_Moon "Besides the links to nonfree software, Pale Moon's trademark policy goes a step too far rendering it nonfree. You can read FSF's position stated in 2011, and that position has not changed. Craigt (talk) 12:28, 16 December 2022 (EST)"
This is a known software freedom matter with Pale Moon, and one that the Pale Moon people could resolve on their own if they were so inclined, by removing the part that "There is NO CHARGE for the download or distribution of the browser package" from https://www.palemoon.org/redist.shtml without even having to consult with the FSF, since it's a known problem.
Oh, also point 14. "We reserve the right to withdraw permission for ... redistribution of officially-branded binaries ... at any time, with or without stated reason..."
That piece goes against https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html which holds that "In order for these freedoms to be real, they must be permanent and irrevocable as long as you do nothing wrong; if the developer of the software has the power to revoke the license, or retroactively add restrictions to its terms, without your doing anything wrong to give cause, the software is not free."
There may yet be other problematic pieces as well but seeing these two be addressed would be a step forward.
Excellent, I am emailing Craig Topham, thank you as always @jxself.
Nice!
Please, keep us posted if there is any news.
Looks like you are going to have to steal someone's life's work after all:
https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=29133&hilit=trademark#p234874
Just remember to change that fateful name, so nobody will notice a thing. What about Dale Noon? Or Gale Boon?
I've been building what I now call "Libre Moon". I've taken out a lot of the Pale Moon branding and replaced it with "Libre Moon". There's still a lot of work for me to do with it to get new artwork and to get the package names themselves changed, but it is free of any trademark restrictions because it does not use official branding.
If anyone wants to test it, I have put a copy of the latest version here, which tracks with the latest 32.1 version of Pale Moon: https://archive.org/details/LibreMoon2.0
Download and unpack it with 'tar xvf palemoon-32.1.0.linux-x86_64-gtk2.tar.xz', then cd into the palemoon directory, and start it with ./palemoon. (As I said, I still want to get the package names changed to Libre Moon, but once you start the browser it will call itself Libre Moon, and this version does not have official branding so is free from the trademark restrictions).
This version is nice, as it has Pale Moon's new webComponents implementation, which means it will properly render vastly more websites than it did last year. Also it's the only browser that I know of to fully implement the FSF-approved JPEG-XL image format (I've heard that Waterfox also has a more limited implementation, whereas Firefox introduced some implementation in Nightly for testing awhile back). Four days ago the FSF slammed Google for abandoning JPEG-XL in chromium and forcing the use of the Google-controlled AVIF format.
I am squeezing a +3 into that up vote, I hope it won't break anything.
> Four days ago the FSF slammed Google for abandoning JPEG-XL in chromium and forcing the use of the Google-controlled AVIF format.
Yes, I saw that. In fact, I am doing my best to skip browsers as much as possible for anything not mostly text.
Where is the source code for this Libre Moon?
The source is sitting on my computer in Dallas. Unfortunately it's turned off and I'm in Austin for about a week. I'll try to get it uploaded to some kind of git repo so you can look through it as soon as possible.
If you want to get a headstart you can follow the procedure to clone the Pale Moon git repo here: http://developer.palemoon.org/build/linux/
Git repo is here: https://repo.palemoon.org/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon.git
My changes for Libre Moon have all been to the palemoon/branding/unofficial files and to disable the offical branding option in the .mozconfig.
As soon as you disable official branding in .mozconfig then you are building a version that is free from the trademark restrictions, and that only has the MPL, GPL and the other licenses for various browser components (mostly or all from Firefox version 52 or previous) on the Pale Moon about:license page. At least that's the way I understand it.
Both the MPL & GPL require source code distribution. It doesn't necessarily have to be in git; even a tarball could work - as long as it corresponds to the version uploaded to archive.org. I recommend uploading both the binary and source code at the same time:
https://softwarefreedom.org/resources/2008/compliance-guide.html
4.1.1 Option (a): Source Alongside Binary
"GPLv2 § 3(a) and v3 § 6(a) embody the easiest option for providing source code: including Corresponding Source with every binary distribution. While other options appear initially less onerous, this option invariably minimizes potential compliance problems, because when you distribute Corresponding Source with the binary, your GPL obligations are satisfied at the time of distribution. This is not true of other options, and for this reason, we urge you to seriously consider this option. If you do not, you may extend the duration of your obligations far beyond your last binary distribution."
I'm imagining the tarballs living together on archive.org, side-by-side and someone could choose to download one or the other or both.
OK I see. I was putting it on my personal archive account for myself to try the build on different computers. I wasn't ready to publish it, but when prospero mentioned it I thought I would offer it for testing. I will rectify the situation as soon as I can and at least put a source tarball on the same archive.org page.
Oh my, andyprough is going to be sent to a Scandinavian penal colony, and it is entirely my fault.
We shall send him magical fruits from time to time, to help his morale.
So, it's Scandinavian torture is it? Bring it on, I can't be broken, no matter how harsh the punishment.
Good job!
On the other hand, may you consider changing these strings and/or setting some of them by default?
https://spyware.neocities.org/guides/palemoon
Thanks!
I'll look into it, but I don't think there's much to do. Libre Moon does not have the Pale Moon start page or update checking - those require official Pale Moon branding. And the OCSP and geolocation values are already set correctly I think - that page looks like it was getting those settings from an older version, when both Pale Moon and Firefox were enforcing OCSP checking. I think that in recent years browser makers have found that enforced OCSP adherence is bad for browsing. That extension block list setting might be something to look into, although it's got a simple toggle in Preferences and is easy for users to change. The extension block list is useful as it blocks some extensions that are known to corrupt the Pale Moon profile or that are known to have security vulnerabilities.
I have just checked and you are right about start page and updates.
As for OCSP and blocklist, they are security features but also privacy breaches.
The first one connects to non-encrypted sites and the second one to blocklist.palemoon.org
Without them you get more privacy at the expense of some security.
Regarding geolocation, it's enabled and points at http://ip-api.com, another non-https web. Disabling it could be annoying for some people but we improve our privacy because webs have more difficult collecting data.
Anyway, please, take into account these are only mere suggestions. You are not obligated to do anything more and I thank you a lot for what you are doing and your time.
I'm a privacy enthusiastic, by the way, and using only free software is a way, in my opinion, to enhance this.
I also believe that no unsolicited connections would be optimal.
Greetings.
Oh wow, I did not notice that about geolocation, you are correct. That should have been disabled in my .mozconfig at build time - I need to check through my .mozconfig and update it.
"Libre Moon does not have the Pale Moon start page or update checking"
One way to work around update checking would be to set up, say, an APT repository that people can add to their computers and pull in updates that way.
Libre Moon version 32.1.1 is available for testing purposes now, based on the new Pale Moon 32.1.1 that was released today with some security and bug fixes. I've compiled and uploaded the tarball for Libre Moon 32.1.1 along with its source code to here: https://archive.org/details/libremoon-32.1.1
The Libre Moon tarball is 39.2mb and is called: libremoon-32.1.1.linux-x86_64-gtk3.tar.xz
Download it and untar it with
tar xvf libremoon-32.1.1.linux-x86_64-gtk3.tar.xz
cd into the "Pale Moon" directory and run it with
./palemoon
I made more changes to branding it as "Libre Moon" within the program, began adding some artwork and icons, and disabled geolocation services by default.
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The source tarball is is 1.2gb and is called: Libre-Moon32.1.1.tar.xz
How do we find any add-ons working with it?
I wanted to add NoScript or something similar even just to remove JavaScript, but found nothing with there build-in add-ons search (and I tried few other search, I did never find anything).
ηMatrix is their noscript kind of extension, although a lot more powerful with built-in adblocking lists: https://addons.palemoon.org/addon/ematrix/
It takes a little bit of getting used to, but it's probably the best of all the script blocking extensions I've ever used, so it's worth the time invested.
Thanks, I'll take a look on it.
The Sonnet of Libre Moon
Amidst the endless sea of code and bytes,
A spark of freedom flickers in the night,
A fork, a new beginning, and new sights,
A quest for software free, fair and right.
Libre Moon, a browser born of the free,
A challenge to the status quo we see,
A fork from Pale Moon, a fight to decree,
The right to freedom and autonomy.
In every line of code, a heart beats strong,
A passion for the free, a burning flame,
A call to arms to join the cause along,
And free the web from the shackles of shame.
Oh Libre Moon, a symbol of our quest,
To keep the web free, and never rest.
Very nice! I'm thinking if we get you singing that to the tune of 'Runaround Sue' we might have a smash hit on our hands.
I am a member!
These lyrics are clearly a great match for Iron Maiden's "Fear of the Dark" tune.
I was thinking about Windrider – To New Lands...
Great …except the metrical structure.
OK, “our” might be pronounce in one syllable, but who pronounce the “e” of “software”? And the last sentence I can't even see a word that might be pronounce with one more syllable.
I'm trying it and it open two pages, the first one being: http://www.palemoon.org/unofficial.shtml that displays: “Sorry, you have been blocked
You are unable to access palemoon.org”.
That is funny.
That's odd, for me it says "Congratulations! You have successfully installed or upgraded the Pale Moon web browser" and says that because it is unofficial it does not get official Pale Moon support.
Are you able to access the Add-ons page at https://addons.palemoon.org/extensions/
Could you try installing an extension, like an ad blocker in the security section, and let me know if it works or not?
Oh, my bad, I understand now, while the page was loading, I was eager to use it with TOR and added TOR as a proxy and it worked.
I've tested without TOR, it is working fine.
If someone here is in contact with the Pale Moon site admin, I suggest they let them know that their Cloudflare settings are blocking Tor users. Sadly many site admins are not aware that their default Cloudflare settings discriminate against Tor users and block them to detriment of both Tor users and traffic of website.
Bump for interest.
Libre Moon version 32.2.0 is available for testing purposes now, based on the new Pale Moon 32.2.0 that was released a few days ago. This new version has a large number of fixes for web compatibility problems, and should now work with the vast majority of websites. Great job by the Pale Moon dev team to track down and fix a large number of problems with rendering various websites.
You can download it from here: https://archive.org/details/libremoon-32.2.0.linux-x86_64-gtk2.tar
The Libre Moon tarball is 39.5mb and is called: libremoon-32.2.0.linux-x86_64-gtk2.tar.xz
Download it and untar it with
tar xvf libremoon-32.2.0.linux-x86_64-gtk2.tar.xz
cd into the "Pale Moon" directory and run it with
./palemoon
I don't think I was able to disable geolocation services in this build, so if you want to disable it go to about:config and type in "geo". If you have a config called geo.enabled and it is set to "True", then double click it to set it to "false"
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The source tarball is is 1.3gb and is called: Libre-Moon32.2.0.x64.tar.gz
Yes, geo.enabled is true, I set it to false.
That's strange that it takes the open tab from the previous version, I suppose it's not saved in his own directory but in some .something directory inside my home directory.
I will further test it later, I don't have time until Monday or even later.
Pale Moon is a Firefox fork, yes? Just out of curiousity, why would I want to use Libre Moon over ABrowser or IceCat?
That is some “retro-FireFox” (when it was still good somehow, in my humble opinion) with all the XUL addons still working and reworked to be somehow more “modern” then the FireFox it's forked from.
It is less bloated and, however FireFox promotes itself now, it is more privacy respectful because of all the bad policies FireFox implemented since then, although, it's not perfect in that regards but it's a better start to do a privacy-respectful browser then present day FireFox.
My own personal goal (when I'll have time to dig enought the subject) is to use Libre Moon with I2P and/or TOR by tweaking it as the TOR Browser and the I2PD Browser Bundle are (speaking of this last one, it's less well tweaked and some I2P's important actor complains about the fact that it has a too old I2PD version even though it's less old that the one in the Trisquel repository that is simply useless as, it's so old that it doesn't work anymore).
Our host (in this topic) Andy Prough (a very sympathetic part-time troll we love to sympathetically troll from time to time) will certainly explain it better then I do, but at least until his comment, you will have a general idea of why you would want to use Libre Moon aside ABrowser and IceCat that are all browser that worth it anyway. I also hope I didn't bore you with my digressions about my own goal with Libre Moon.
>"My own personal goal (when I'll have time to dig enought the subject) is to use Libre Moon with I2P and/or TOR by tweaking it as the TOR Browser and the I2PD Browser Bundle are"
That's pretty awesome, please keep notes on how you go about it and share them with us. Having an alternative to Tor Browser could be interesting.
Mullvad Browser is pretty awesome and way faster than the tor browser:
It's not better, it's just the one I prefer right now because of lower ram usage and because I'm in love with its eMatrix security extension which I prefer to Noscript. But I'm not pushing it on anyone else - this version I'm building is just for testing/hobby purposes at this point.
Libre Moon version 32.2.1 is available for testing purposes now, based on the new Pale Moon 32.2.1 that was released a few days ago. This new version has a few more fixes for web compatibility problems.
You can download it from here: https://archive.org/details/libremoon-32.2.1.linux-x86_64-gtk2.tar
The Libre Moon tarball is 40mb and is called: libremoon-32.2.1.linux-x86_64-gtk2.tar.xz
Download it and untar it with
tar xvf libremoon-32.2.1.linux-x86_64-gtk2.tar.xz
cd into the "Pale Moon" directory and run it with
./palemoon
If you want to disable geolocation services go to about:config and type in "geo". If you have a config called geo.enabled and it is set to "True", then double click it to set it to "false"
========================================
The source tarball is 2.3gb and is called: Libre-Moon_source_32.2.1.tar.gz
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