Paypal $2500 Fine

9 respostas [Última entrada]
PublicLewdness
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Joined: 03/15/2020

So Paypal had introduced a $2500 fine it would issue to users for spreading "misinformation". They didn't explain what would constitute "misinformation". There was a huge backlash and they dropped it saying it was an accident. Then they quietly tried to sneak it back into the terms of service saying the fine was for “any messages, content, or materials that, in PayPal’s sole discretion” are “harmful” or “objectionable,” depict or even appear to depict nudity, “depict, promote, or incite hatred or discrimination of protected groups,” present a risk to a user’s “wellbeing,” “promote misinformation,” or are, in PayPal’s opinion, “otherwise unfit for publication.”

I am kind of surprised that I don't see many places in the FOSS world or even tech world in general talking about this. Many FOSS projects, Trisquel included, receive donations through Paypal and could be hit with a fine for very dubious reasons at any time. I know that there aren't a lot of good options, Stripe or Bitcoin being the biggest alternatives each with their own issues. Still you think there would at least be a discussion about leaving Paypal.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilymason/2022/10/27/after-paypal-revokes-controversial-misinformation-policy-major-concerns-remain-over-2500-fine/?sh=70fe3c1c30c4

https://www.thefire.org/news/did-paypal-quietly-bring-back-its-financial-penalty-spreading-misinformation

Thoughts ?

prospero
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Joined: 05/20/2022

"The upshot is that PayPal has not brought back the much-criticized “misinformation” ban."

PublicLewdness
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Joined: 03/15/2020

Yeah that part is hilarious since earlier in the article when they're listing what Paypal can fine you for misinformation is listed. They haven't taken away the misinformation ban, they've expanded it to include other offenses.

prospero
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Joined: 05/20/2022

I have a policy never to talk to anyone about money matters, so I do not feel that my freedom of speech can be trampled on by PayPal, or any banker, in any way. People always seem to realize far too late the amount of power they allow these oligopolistic monsters to gather, just because their services are "one click away".

That said, I have premium quality dry cabbage leaves for you, but only if you pay in Swiss Francs in a manila envelope stashed in a shallow rock nearby that old tree.

PublicLewdness
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Joined: 03/15/2020

"I have a policy never to talk to anyone about money matters, so I do not feel that my freedom of speech can be trampled on by PayPal, or any banker, in any way. People always seem to realize far too late the amount of power they allow these oligopolistic monsters to gather, just because their services are "one click away".

That said, I have premium quality dry cabbage leaves for you, but only if you pay in Swiss Francs in a manila envelope stashed in a shallow rock nearby that old tree."

Your freedom of speech can be trampled by Paypal any time they please since they can make anything you say fit their loose guidelines If you don't see how that is a problem than your no different from those that say that them running closed source firmware/drivers/software may not pose them any risks to their privacy or security. I don't know where you live but where I live people had their bank accounts frozen when banks were asked to by the Canadian government last year for donating to causes the government disliked so you should worry about your bank as well. Saying you don't care about a problem is different from saying there isn't a problem.

prospero
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Joined: 05/20/2022

Either I misrepresented my own thoughts, or I did not understand your posts. In any case, I am no client of PP, but I assume you are - or have been until recently.

I have in fact been an occasional user of their services for small transactions (more like an online purse than a wallet), until some point some years ago when I decided that I would rather not sign their new privacy policy and closed my account. So I believe my actual position may be the very opposite to the one you are describing: I do care about the potential problem (and hence about your problem if you are indeed a client of PP) but I do not have that problem myself.

That said, you seemed to believe that you had a problem of freedom of speech because of PP's policies, but now you are talking about what happened in your country with other entities in the banking system, also involving the government. So is the problem we are talking about specific to PP's various policy documents (aka "Paypal $2500 Fine"), or are you in fact referring to the much larger problem of the pervasive and continuous restrictions of all kind of rights by all sorts of governments, including privacy, in all kinds of fields?

In general, I may have a tendency to be more sensitive to privacy matters than to "freedom of speech" screams. I see many people in many places using the "freedom of speech" narrative to push their own agenda by shaming other people, and not really to fight for the right to express one's own ideas and beliefs, and to share information, without fearing retribution. In fact, I see "freedom of speech" being often used as an excuse to shut out other people, as in: "it is my freedom to express this opinion, so shut up now or I am going to have to consider that you are trying to trample on my freedom of speech". Or do you really mean that PP is now going to charge their clients for whatever they have been posting in the Troll Lounge that does not fit their policy?

iShareFreedom
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Joined: 12/20/2021

Why you prefer hide the term free as in freedom?

PublicLewdness
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Joined: 03/15/2020

"Why you prefer hide the term free as in freedom?"

Was that directed at me ? If so I'm unsure how I was "hiding" a term.

prospero
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Joined: 05/20/2022

You have been caught red-handed and stand accused of using the 'FOSS' acronym, which is listed there https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#FOSS, and is thus strictly forbidden under the Trisquel Community Guidelines: "2. Avoid certain misnomers and propaganda terms". Punishment for such an infrigement is a $2,500 fine, to be paid directly to PayPal.

LibertyNerd
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Joined: 03/21/2023

Dear PublicLewdness, I appreciate you posting about this.

I oppose PayPal's policy entirely for various reasons. One of the reasons their policy made me so mad is many things that they were labeling as "mis-information" turned out to be factually true later. For example, in 2020, if you said someone who was vaccinated could still catch covid, you were called an "anti-vaxxer" who was spreading "conspiracy theories" and "mis-information".

The current year is 2023, and Joe Biden, President of the United States Government, caught covid after being boosted, among many others. So now we know that such claims were not "misinformation", but were true.

I do feel a need to clarify on what "Free speech" legally is considered in the United States.

The 1st amendment says the Government can not punish you or arrest you for expressing yourself in a "lawful" way. Obviously there is a caveat to this, that I don't really want to go into at the moment. For example, it is unlawful to threaten harm to someone. That is not protected. The 1st amendment does not prevent a company like Twitter, PayPal, etc, from putting in "restrictions" in their terms of service. I don't know if you saw the Twitter Files which were leaked after Elon bought Twitter, but they confirmed that the FBI had contacted Twitter and asked Twitter to censor tweets about certain topics.

One is not considered to have free speech on private property, and this is true both on physical private property as well as in privately owned digital areas (like Twitter).

This all being said, there has been more awareness raised on this topic, and I believe free software will help us to address this issue, and provide free alternatives to current platforms where controversial truth is often censored.

Anyways, I figured I'd get that internal rant out. Thanks again for mentioning this good sir.