Question about libreboot T400 and X200 laptops

The FSF isn't a religious organization. It's not a sin to use imperfect hardware. The FSF only gives the best recommendations it can.

The "Respects Your Freedom" page lists hardware which has no proprietary firmware requirements, with the exception of firmware that is burnt onto a ROM and embedded into the hardware itself (such as the firmware in the hard drive and the firmware in the keyboard).

The "companies that sell computers pre-installed with GNU/Linux" page is just that: a list of companies that offer the option to buy their computers pre-installed with an FSF-endorsed GNU/Linux distro. This does not mean that the computer has no proprietary software. But after RYF-endorsed devices, this is the second-best choice. (Think Penguin, in particular, makes an effort to ensure that all of its hardware works out-of-the-box with Linux-libre.)

The list of single-board computers gives information on single-board computers available, i.e. what flaws each of them has.

There is no such thing today as "free hardware". All hardware manufactured today includes components sourced from one of a few very large corporations; this is currently an economic necessity. Designs for these components are not available. There isn't even a such a thing as a computer that includes absolutely no proprietary software, since as I alluded to earlier all of them have embedded firmware in things like keyboards and hard drives. Heck, every single USB device you use has some sort of firmware embedded into it, and this is proprietary firmware. That's why the FSF makes an exception for embedded firmware; a device running only libre software in every component just isn't feasible, at least not today.

You're thinking too much. The FSF isn't a religious organization. It's not a
sin to use hardware that mistreats you. The FSF only gives the best
recommendations it can.

The "Respects Your Freedom" page lists hardware which has no proprietary
firmware requirements, with the exception of firmware that is burnt onto a
ROM and embedded into the hardware itself (such as the firmware in the hard
drive and the firmware in the keyboard).

The "companies that sell computers pre-installed with GNU/Linux" page is just
that: a list of companies that offer the option to buy their computers
pre-installed with an FSF-endorsed GNU/Linux distro. This does not mean that
the computer has no proprietary software. But after RYF-endorsed devices,
this is the second-best choice. (Think Penguin, in particular, makes an
effort to ensure that all of its hardware works out-of-the-box with
Linux-libre.)

The list of single-board computers gives information on single-board
computers available, i.e. what flaws each of them has.

There is no such thing today as "free hardware". All hardware manufactured
today includes components sourced from one of a few very large corporations;
this is currently an economic necessity. Designs for these components are not
available. There isn't even a such a thing as a computer that includes
absolutely no proprietary software, since as I alluded to earlier all of them
have embedded firmware in things like keyboards and hard drives. Heck, every
single USB device you use has some sort of firmware embedded into it, and
this is proprietary firmware. That's why the FSF makes an exception for
embedded firmware; a device running only libre software in every component
just isn't feasible, at least not today.

I read your posts. You did not understand mine.

The kernels in Ubuntu's repositories include proprietary firmware. In particular, they include proprietary firmware for the AMD graphic card that the libre "radeon" driver uses. The kernels in Trisquel's repositories do not include that firmware (or any other proprietary firmware), hence more freedom... and less features (e.g., no 3D acceleration).

This is because those "open source drivers" as you call them include proprietary junk inside of them, as Magic Banana says.

For an example, check out all of the stuff that gets ripped out in order to make Linux-libre: http://linux-libre.fsfla.org/pub/linux-libre/releases/4.4-gnu/linux-libre-4.4-gnu.log

(And this is just the standard kernel from kernel.org - The one used by Ubuntu contains even more than this because they add even more proprietary junk in!)

I read your posts. You did not understand mine.

The kernels in Ubuntu's repositories include proprietary firmware. In
particular, they include proprietary firmware for the AMD graphic card that
the libre "radeon" driver uses. The kernels in Trisquel's repository do not
include that firmware (or any other proprietary firmware), hence more
freedom... and less features (e.g., no 3D acceleration).

This is because those "open source drivers" as you call them include
proprietary junk inside of them, as Magic Banana says.

For an example, check out all of the stuff that gets ripped out in order to
make Linux-libre:
http://linux-libre.fsfla.org/pub/linux-libre/releases/4.4-gnu/linux-libre-4.4-gnu.log

(And this is just the standard kernel from kernel.org - The one used by
Ubuntu contains even more than this because they add even more proprietary
junk in!)

>I started to do deeper research and i seen that these laptops are completely
cracked down,their hardware unlocked 100%.

Not correct. Proprietary firmware is required and used for the hard drive and the embedded controller.

>Now what weird to me is where they get hardware from?

Those are just refurbished Lenovo laptops.

>I guess that OS like trisquel are actually made for this kind of
hardware,because i tried it on my new laptop(2013 manufacturing year,one of
the first Richland based AMDs APU with R7 M260 graphics)and my graphics card
performance on both GPU and APU was 5% which is disaster.

Trisquel's kernel was deblobbed. Buguntu's kernel is the vanilla Linux which ships a trizillion of proprietary firmware on which (particularly in the case of AMD) 3d acceleration depends. Hence the super crappy performance in the absence of the latter in Trisquel.

>Now seeing newest ubuntu LTS 14.04.3,and its drivers that are great,hardware
accelerated,openGL performance works the same as on windows ,closedsource are
faster to be honest,much more,and even better performance on openGL rendering
with Ubuntu than on WIndows,but they have some bugs and were causing my
laptop to freeze at random so i decided to keep free drivers.

Proprietary software is never *great*, it is never a solution, on the contrary it is a huge problem.

>Now seeing this not available in trisquel at all,even if its free,i am
interested in buying some supported hardware,but i dont want to buy old peace
of crap that is sitting on some shelf for 8 years.

ATI drivers (xorg) are free indeed but without the non-free firmware loaded in the kernel you would still have 5% of the desired performance. There is nothing "great" about the drivers in Buguntu, it's just that in Buguntu you are using the non-free firmware (3d acceleration depends on it). You would have the same performance in any other distro, Trisquel included, if it shipped the non-free firmware.

As far as "old crap" goes, libreboot is installable *only* on older hardware, so, excluding the case (which is, lets say, a possibility) the two proprietary firmware still present in the librebooted hardware - hard drive and embedded controller - are not doing nasty things, then you are left with a choice: buy an "old crap" that respects your freedom and is not backdoored or buy whatever modern lappy which respects the producer's greed and is without any doubt backdoored.

To be perfectly clear, Trisquel works perfectly on some modern hardware. But that modern hardware has obstacles to freedom, and depends on proprietary boot firmware. See here for details:

https://libreboot.org/faq/

Think Penguin is a company that uses this modern hardware to produce computers that at least work perfectly with Linux-libre (and hence Trisquel), but they depend on (and are shipped with) proprietary boot firmware. So it's a fallacy to assume that Trisquel needs 8-year-old hardware to perform well. It's just that you need 8-year-old hardware to get an x86 system that works with 100% libre software... with the exception of embedded, unchangeable firmware found in various components.

I talking about "reclock", not "overclock", which is different thing. Reclock is for get the stock core and memory clocks, raising to the highest GPU's pstate (this is not overclock). When you use a Nvidia GPU, with free drivers with no reclock, you using it with the lowest pstate. This is why the performance is a full crap (I talking about performance, not compatibility with free drivers).

I talking about "reclock", not "overclock", which is different thing. Reclock
is for get the stock core and memory clocks, raising to the highest GPU's
pstate (this is not overclock). When you use a Nvidia GPU, with free drivers
with no reclock, you using it with the lowest pstate. This is why the
performance is a full crap (I talking about performance, not compatibility
with free drivers).