Technoethical bankrupt?
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Dear fellow free software lovers, do you know whether Technoethical is indeed bankrupt? Their site is currently “down for maintenance” but I think they have run out of money somehow. I ordered a T400 unbelievably long ago from them, on the 3rd of December last year, but still have not received it.
Initially I found Tiberiu to be very forthcoming and replying quickly while we were discussing the final configuration for the laptop. He emailed me that he would ship it to me on the 15th of December, but that never happened. What I got was one month of effective silence from his side, with “effective silence” I mean: no email or email that was encrypted against the wrong key. His last readable email to me was on the 22nd of December.
A month afterwards I finally decided it was of no use and then I requested a refund from him on the 23rd of January. Then all of a sudden he replied (encrypted against the right key, yeah!) to me on the 2nd of February, the day before FOSDEM, whether he could meet me there and deliver the laptop. This was very inconvenient for me at the moment and had actually given up my trust in him. So, maybe stupidly, I gave him one last chance so that we could meet in person, but at a certain moment he really lost my trust completely during our conversations. I told him this and requested him again to do the refund, this time without a last opportunity to deliver the laptop.
Tiberiu then promised me to refund me no later than the 23rd of February (one month after my initial request) but as you can by now guess, he did not do that. Then at the 2nd of March I received an email from him that he had some loan in Bitcoin and whether I wanted to accept that as a refund. At that moment I actually realized that he probably was not even going to hold up to his promise of a refund. Of course, I did not accept the Bitcoins since I did not trust him in the first place anymore. I gave him one last possibility for the refund within 7 days to my bank account. I told him, I would consider it as definitive that he would not hold up to his promises after this date. Today I have not received back anything from him yet and actually don't expect this anymore too.
Before I tried to buy the laptop form Tiberiu, I actually tried to buy it from Leah. That was almost an experience as horrible as this one with Tiberiu. But I must say: in the end she refunded me. Leah always seemed to be in some sort of hurry with writing and forgetting the most important things. To me I made very clear what was most important: that I would receive my free software laptop sealed. It was not the first time I bought something from her, but somehow the sealing thing she always forgot. Actually, maybe buying a laptop from Leah is still a good idea if you really trust her and all shipping companies with her. Because she isn't going to seal the laptop, not for me at least.
My experiences with buying these “Respects Your Freedom certified products” is thus so bad, that I do not trust anyone selling them anymore and I really think this is a shame. Unfortunately, reasoning that it was safe to order a free software product from the founder of Romania's free software foundation (Fundația Ceata, the foundation for free software and free culture based in Romania) did not hold. I wonder what the fsf's reaction would be since Technoethical is all over their webpage on ryf-rated products. I fear not so much soon probably (as I see from s1lv3r's post “Free software foundations problems”). I wonder what the fsf is doing anyway, I had tremendous problems donating to them with cc from Europe for years.. don't they want people's support? Anyway, as I am drifting off-topic, to anyone reading this, if ever Technoethical or Tiberiu would start selling laptops again, I would urge you to rethink your decision – you have been warned..!
I am a member!
Hi,
It is true that we at Technoethical are going through a period that is more difficult financially than we are used with. This is mainly due to refund requests for orders of phones pre-installed with Replicant 6.0 that don't work with some GSM carriers. This is a known software bug that Replicant 4.2 doesn't have and I won't go into details here. Anyway, we're stubborn and we'll continue shipping phones with a fully free system.
I also understand that you have come to Technoethical after a bad experience with Minifree, which has made you stress details about your order that didn't need to be stressed because we pay attention to the customer's requests. This has put unnecessary pressure on us. Also, you have assumed an ill-intention when I've sent you replies encrypted against an older key of yours, although that was not entirely my fault, but of the "free" and unstable system that I was testing, PureOS.
Seeing that you are oriented on security, we offered to implement write protection from internal flashing of Libreboot. This proved to be a task that wasn't as straight forward as short-circuiting two pins of the flash chip. This is the main reason why your order was delayed and we took advantage of the fact that the Technoethical team was getting together at FOSDEM to work on researching and implementing this. I proposed meeting there because of your proximity to the conference's location.
We at Technoethical are working around the clock to fulfill customer's orders and customizations, despite being difficult to source, refurbish and modify these more freedom-respecting devices. And even though we register delays, especially during the holidays, we always deliver.
Your refund has been issued today and not sooner for reasons that didn't depend on us, but on transfers delays. Calling me a liar and attacking the Technoethical project when it's the most vulnerable, while we're working to fix our server, is low.
Tiberiu
First of all, I have finally received the refund from Tiberiu on the 14th of March. Tiberiu, thank you for keeping your promise in the end.
There are however a few issues that I think should be put straight as the readers of this thread deserve to know.
> Calling me a liar and attacking the Technoethical project when it's the most vulnerable, while we're working to fix our server, is low.
I did never call Tiberiu a liar, nowhere. I simply stated that at some point I did not trust him anymore. I never considered my post on this forum an attack, it was simply what I considered to be my last resort to get my money back. Also, I think that it is a great thing that customers can share their experiences online and together make out on the trustworthiness of an online seller. As the freedom and security a user obtains in this case should ultimately depend on the seller, it is important consider this seller’s trustworthiness.
From my point of view, my money was gone, what was promised was not delivered. The question about bankruptcy was really a valid and relevant question to the community from my perspective. Also, I did not know about the reasons for the large refund before I read Tiberiu’s reply to my post.
> Also, you have assumed an ill-intention when I've sent you replies encrypted against an older key of yours,
Again, I simply did not trust you anymore. Indications for ill-intent are not proofs of ill-intent, I know this very well and will always be careful of it. This does not mean that I have now regained my trust in Tiberiu or Technoethical. However, it can very well be that Tiberiu and Technoethical is very much dedicated to the free software community as appeared very reasonable to me in the beginning.
> , although that was not entirely my fault, but of the "free" and unstable system that I was testing, PureOS.
[…]
> Your refund has been issued today and not sooner for reasons that didn't depend on us, but on transfers delays.
I think this is not professional nor honest. You push away your responsibility. As I assume you agree on the dates and events that took place in my first post, it should be evident to everyone that I have been very flexible in the time I allowed you to 1. deliver the laptop to me and to 2. transfer a refund.
I think positiveness and forgiveness is a great good. As this forum is not full of complaints from Technoethical’s customers, I think it is fairly reasonable to say that my case is probably just a very unfortunate coincidence of multiple things leading to a very unsatisfying end (for me at least). With the refund I can however close things up for myself.
My advice to everyone, don’t buy any machine that does not respect a user’s freedom. However if you buy a freedom-respecting machine, always ask the machine to be delivered sealed. If it turns out that the laptop has been tampered with, you know who to blame!
Did you pay in advance?
If you did, you know you have no buyer protection like
paypal or payment cards provide. It makes regaining
your money much more difficult or impossible.
The fact that a seller cannot deliver does not make him a
fraudster. If seller several times made promises which he
did not keep and he knew he would not be able to keep
then he may be a fraudster.
You are encouraged to tell if sellers of hardware
running libre software are unprofessional or
deceptive. I want to know. Others likely also
want to know.
I think this market segment is very small. I think
it is difficult to make a profitable enterprise of
it.
@libra
did you get your refund by now?
This is a very delicate issue. I think we need to be very careful to state only what we *know* (for example "I paid for my laptop on [payment date] and as of [current date] it has not been delivered"), and not to engage in idle speculation, or accusations of fraud. What is actually going on may be a simple misunderstanding, especially when some or all of the people involved are not native speakers of the language they are communicating in.
However, if dodgy vendors were exploiting claims of software freedom to rip off members of this community, posting a warning here would be totally fair and appropriate. If users are paying for goods, and not receiving them, they certainly deserve to have this problem fixed (either by delivery or refund), and I certainly do not wish to silence them. I just ask them to be patient and careful in the way they communicate their experiences here.
I am a member!
Hello,
We ask that the Trisquel project (and its forum users) stop censoring the statement that I've sent in the name of the Technoethical project. Proof attached.
Once again, the fact that the Trisquel forum users have the power to hide perfectly legitimate posts that some of them don't want the world to see, proves yet again how flawed this voting system is because of its "hide" anti-feature.
This is not the first complain, and we are not the only ones that have complained since this system has been introduced. We see the motivation in fighting the many trolls in the Trisquel forum, but as reality shows, the vote-based automatic "hide" anti-feature is a tool in the wrong hands, a tool of censorship. In the past we have tried to fight this and bring balance. It is futile, as it happens again and again, and without even being notified that public statements are being censored.
This needs to stop.
Thanks in advance.
Tiberiu, Technoethical
EDIT: Submitted a bug report here: https://trisquel.info/en/issues/23959
I am a member!
-/+1 (see attached)
The question is: are you a Technoethical customer?
I am a member!
Okay, goodbye. Your answer proved my point. Also, another screenshot (-2 score for my latest post).
MSuzuqi wrote:
>> I recommend you to prove your honesty by opening your and libra's emails to the public <<
Demanding a business publish private emails between themselves and their customers is ridiculous. It would be highly unethical for any business to do this, at least without explicit permission from the customer.
>> also I recommend you to cooperate with other libreboot vendors to solve the issues rather than discussing with me, if there are issues. <<
This has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, which is an unsatisfied customer using this forum to air their grievances with a hardware supplier. If you think there are issues with libreboot, why not start a new thread explaining what you think those issues are, and how you think they might be solved?
Is there any way the RYF certification program could provide a third-party complaints service people could contact if they have problems like this, rather than posting on public forums? Done well, this could protect customers buying RYF hardware, as well as the reputations of RYF certified suppliers and the RYF scheme itself.
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