Trisquel 3.5 beta published
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http://devel.trisquel.info/trisquel_3.5-BETA20100218_i686.iso
http://devel.trisquel.info/trisquel_3.5-BETA20100218_i686.md5
You can read the release announcement here:
http://listas.trisquel.info/pipermail/trisquel-devel/2010-February/000093.html
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Good work. I'll burn this ISO and do some testing. :) In the future, I hope the project will even do this for alpha.
Some questions:
* Was Inkscape removed only to reduce disk space? If so, I can understand, as disk space appears to be very limited for this project.
* What exactly were the modifications to A Web Browser, and which ones aren't working?
* Today's installation of Conkerer web browser through the updater came as a surprise. Was this to fix the problem with "About Trisquel" not starting up if the default browser is removed? If this was the main purpose, I think it should be hidden from the Menu Bar by default.
* When you say the icon set is too big, do that mean that the icon resolutions are too high, or that there are too many icons?
* I can help design the needed art for you. One question: what is the codename for version 3.5?
> Good work. I'll burn this ISO and do some testing. :) In the future,
> I hope the project will even do this for alpha.
Well, it was the very first iso image built for this release.
> Some questions:
>
> *Was Inkscape removed only to reduce disk space? If so, I can
> understand, as disk space appears to be very limited for this project.
Disk space is very important in a live cd, you have 703MB to play with.
But it was not the only reason, inkscape is only used by a few users,
and in a friendly desktop oriented OS it is not a vital feature.
I don't believe in the "its better because includes more programs"
stanza. The simpler, the better. And also, it weights 27MB! ;)
> *What exactly were the modifications to A Web Browser, and which ones
> aren't working?
We apply a set of changes to Firefox to make it freedom-respecting, and
the modifications require us to change the name and logo. Some of those
changes are failing (This part should be discussed in trisquel-devel).
> *Today's installation of Conkerer web browser through the updater
> came as a surprise. Was this to fix the problem with "About Trisquel"
> not starting up if the default browser is removed?
I don't know about this. Which unexpected packages came with your
updates exactly?
> If this was the
> main purpose, I think it should be hidden from the Menu Bar by
> default. *When you say the icon set is too big, do that mean that the
> icon resolutions are too high, or that there are too many icons?
It means it wastes too much disk. It should be like half a MB instead
of 6MB. Most of the icons are already provided by gnome-icons and can
be removed.
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"We apply a set of changes to Firefox to make it freedom-respecting, and
the modifications require us to change the name and logo. Some of those
changes are failing (This part should be discussed in trisquel-devel)."
With Inkscape removed, perhaps we have the headroom to make IceCat the default browser instead? You've already said that it takes up too much room because it is packaged with redundant dependencies, but perhaps 10 extra megabytes is a good sacrifice to make so that all of these maintenance issues will be taken out of our hands.
"I don't know about this. Which unexpected packages came with your
updates exactly?"
Yesterday, the update manager suggested that I install Conkerer web browser, and I did. This browser is ultra-lightweight and solved the prior issue I posted with a browser not opening when I click the "About Trisquel" icon from the Menu Bar.
> With Inkscape removed, perhaps we have the headroom to make IceCat
> the default browser instead? You've already said that it takes up too
> much room because it is packaged with redundant dependencies, but
> perhaps 10 extra megabytes is a good sacrifice to make so that all of
> these maintenance issues will be taken out of our hands.
With Inkscape removed we have a few free KB (not even a MB!) in the
i386 iso, and the amd64 version is always bigger, so we need to go thin.
Mozilla programs are composed of xulrunner and a small app on top.
Xulrunner weights 8MB, and IceCat includes its own copy. No way.
Abrowser is 1.6MB big, while IceCat weights 12-13MB.
If someone is willing to provide a pre-packaged, stripped down version
of IceCat made the Debian Way (tm), then we can serve it. Anyway, to
replace the default browser it will have to meet some other criteria
IceCat is not meeting by now.
> "I don't know about this. Which unexpected packages came with your
> updates exactly?"
>
> Yesterday, the update manager suggested that I install Conkerer web
> browser, and I did. This browser is ultra-lightweight and solved the
> prior issue I posted with IceCat not opening when I click the "About
> Trisquel" icon from the Menu Bar.
I think you mean konqueror, but if it was suggested then you must be
using a non-standard desktop package selection. Anyway, any package
providing /usr/bin/x-www-browser should make the link work, and any
properly packaged web browser should provide that wrapper.
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The only issue than concerns me is the Abrowser mods not working. I'll give it a test and see.
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On the subject of alternatives for existing programs:
* Pidgin / Empathy: I think keeping Pidgin for now would be a good idea as Pidgin is a very stable and mature application. Although removing Pidgin and Ekiga and replacing both with Empathy would probably result in a few extra megabytes of free space for the LiveCD while retaining the existing features of multi-protocol IM, video chat, and VoIP from the default install. I don't IM or VoIP/video chat and haven't ever used any of these programs to communicate, so my opinion could possibly be misinformed or naive? ;)
* Abrowser / Arora / Midori / Other: This would be a good idea if Trisquel aimed to be a lightweight distro. Midori, I know, is a wonderful lightweight webkit-based browser that supports tabbed browsing, remembers sessions, and even custom scripts and add-ons. But the problem is that users in 2010 are going to expect FireFox, and are that much likely to give Trisquel an early rejection -- or simply replace it with IceCat -- if another browser is the default.
* Totem / VLC: VLC, because it does everything Totem is able to do (in a browser or out), and much, much more.
* Swfdec / Gnash: Swfdec; I've found it to have fewer compatibility issues, and it also doesn't require OpenGL to run. But even the latest Swfdec is unable to play many YouTube videos. For guaranteed YouTube playback, I also strongly suggest that Greasemonkey and these two scripts are included by default:
> * Pidgin / Empathy: I think keeping Pidgin for now would be a good
> idea as Pidgin is a very stable and mature application. Although
> removing Pidgin and Ekiga and replacing both with Empathy would
> probably result in a few extra megabytes of free space for the LiveCD
> while retaining the existing features of multi-protocol IM, video
> chat, and VoIP from the default install. I don't IM or VoIP/video
> chat and haven't ever used any of these programs to communicate, so
> my opinion could possibly be misinformed or naive? ;)
Ekiga is not in the default install, so replacing Pidgin with Empathy
would require a little extra space, as the latter is bigger. The only
reason for bringing up the discussion about those two is the "share
desktop" feature in Empathy -that I've didn't test already- which looks
like a very nice way to get help online.
> * Abrowser / Arora / Midori / Other: This would be a good idea if
> Trisquel aimed to be a lightweight distro. Midori, I know, is a
> wonderful lightweight webkit-based browser that supports tabbed
> browsing, remembers sessions, and even custom scripts and add-ons.
> But the problem is that users in 2010 are going to expect,/em>
> FireFox, and are that much likely to give Trisquel an early rejection
> -- or simply replace it with IceCat -- if another browser is the
> default.
As I discovered after suggesting it, Yelp (the help viewer) requires
xulrunner to work, so using a non-xulrunner based browser would waste a
lot of space. Probably Yelp can be compiled with webkit instead so it
can be shared with Arora or Midori. By now we will just keep Abrowser.
> * Totem / VLC: VLC, because it does everything Totem is able to do
> (in a browser or out), and much, much more.
Yep, VLC is nice, but has some downsides: it is a QT app, and that
requires a lot of QT related stuff to be installed just for one app.
There is not enough space. As minor downsides, it has less translations
and it is not as easy to use as totem is.
> * Swfdec / Gnash: Swfdec; I've found it to have fewer compatibility
> issues, and it also doesn't require OpenGL to run. But even the
> latest Swfdec is unable to play many YouTube videos. For guaranteed
> YouTube playback, I also strongly suggest that Greasemonkey and these
> two scripts are included by default:
I read somewere that the current Gnash version is better and that
Swfdec project is not releasing updates, but when I tested both in 3.5
Swfdec still looked better.
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I didn't know VLC is Qt-based. :)
I'm likewise surprised that swfdec is so laxly maintained, considering its relative importance.
Though Greasemonkey and those two scripts are still the best guarantee of playing a YouTube video without Flash.
I still feel strongly that most users will be looking for FireFox in the default install, and Trisquel could even lose potential users if it's not included by default.
Hello
from announcement:
"We also have to decide some alternatives for programs:
* Pidgin / Empathy
* Abrowser / Arora / Midori / Other
* Totem / VLC
* Swfdec / Gnash"
I think Pidgin should be replaced by Empathy because the second one is using a Telepathy framework wich is more advanced and complete solution than Pidgin's Purple library.
Web browser is one of the most fragile parts of system. I feel more confident using a popular browser wich has more developers keeping it stable and secure. I suggest stay with Abrowser or find some other Firefox-based program.
I think VLC shouldn't be the default media player because it needs Qt and it's more complicated than Totem. Totem is more user-friendly and suites the users needs (i think so).
Swfdec should be replaced by Gnash, because it's seems to be no linger developed (last release was in 2008).
Other ideas:
* Remove GIMP from default instalation and replace it by Pinta. Pinta is a simple drawing and image editing application, easier to use than GIMP.
* Replace Evolution by IceDove because is much easier to setup mail account and it's generaly more convenient.
Trisquel is a very cool distro and I'm waiting with hope for the 3.5 release. You're doing a great job, good luck :)
PS Does Trisquel 3.5 have a feature to encrypt home folder in installation wizard like Ubuntu 9.10?
> I think Pidgin should be replaced by Empathy because the second one
> is using a Telepathy framework wich is more advanced and complete
> solution than Pidgin's Purple library.
This change is easier to do than most of the others, we need to do some
tests with it. Being supported upstream it is probably a good choice.
> Web browser is one of the most fragile parts of system. I feel more
> confident using a popular browser wich has more developers keeping it
> stable and secure. I suggest stay with Abrowser or find some other
> Firefox-based program.
Indeed.
> I think VLC shouldn't be the default media player because it needs Qt
> and it's more complicated than Totem. Totem is more user-friendly and
> suites the users needs (i think so).
I agree. Advanced users can still install it very easily.
> Swfdec should be replaced by Gnash, because it's seems to be no
> linger developed (last release was in 2008).
That is true in a medium to long term, but if comparing the current
versions in awen/karmic swfdec is better, we can do the swap in the
next release. The thing is, I don't know which one is the best by now.
> Other ideas:
> * Remove GIMP from default instalation and replace it by Pinta. Pinta
> is a simple drawing and image editing application, easier to use than
> GIMP.
I didn't know about Pinta. It is not in the repository, so it won't
happen. But replacing Gimp with a smaller tool would be nice.
> * Replace Evolution by IceDove because is much easier to setup mail
> account and it's generaly more convenient.
Including IceDove would be a lot of work, similar to maintaining the
web browser, so I think we should avoid it.
> Trisquel is a very cool distro and I'm waiting with hope for the 3.5
> release. You're doing a great job, good luck :)
Thank you!
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First, thanks a lot for the work done. I would like to know if it is possible and safe to update from 3.0 to 3.5? I am using 3.0 as my main system, which works very fine, so I would not like to update as yet if there is risk of causing troubles (particularly on Open Office, basic functioning of web browser, etc.)-. If it is likely that problems would arise I would test installing on a different partition.
> First, thanks a lot for the work done. I would like to know if it is
> possible and safe to update from 3.0 to 3.5?
Not yet, but it should be possible sometime in the future.
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Pinta it is Mono and GTK# based app.
Oh, I didn't noticed that.
Ubuntu developers removed GIMP from 10.04 release and replace it by F-Spot
http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/11/giving-up-the-gimp-is-a-sign-of-ubuntus-mainstream-maturity.ars
Maybe the best way is to replace GIMP with some lightweight photo editing tool (F-Spot is also a Mono app).
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Ok, thanks again for the prompt answer, I will test installing on a different partition. By the way, does 3.5 keeps three separate partitions for boot, system and home? If it is so, I think that unifying boot and system -as most distributions- would make solving booting issues easier -answers to similar problems in other distributions would also work for Trisquel-.
As for the discussion about swfdec, as far as youtube is concerned, I wonder whether it is a problem of sfwdec or it has rather something to do with youtube configuration of their web pages. I have observed that some videos which sfwdec does not reproduce when watched on youtube they do reproduce when they are embedded on a different webpage -e.g. a blog or other-, would gnash solve that problem? In this respect, I have been unable to replace sfwdec with Gnash in my current installation to test which one works better and in which web pages, so perhaps 3.5 should provide some straight way to allow swapping from the one to the other.
As for space on the CD, I believe that as far as it is possible to install a program through synaptic it should not be a problem to any basic user if that program is not included by default. Perhaps it is better not to waste space on the CD including a substitute for Gimp, since Gimp is a very well known program and it could be installed later through synaptic -in any case, it is likely that most people will go for a fuller program, so they will end up installing Gimp-. More on disk space: have you considered issuing both a CD with a more basic set of programs and a fuller DVD? As far as it is clearly stated which are the main differences in content I think it should be fine.
A further question concerning packages, will VLC be included in the repositories? You mention that this program would be easily installable to advanced users, but not all of us are advanced users. I do not know if it could work better on some video formats -although large VRO files reproduce well on Totem you can hardly jump from one point to other of the film (it is very slow)-. Again, as far as it is available through synaptic it should not be a problem to install later and test.
Again, thanks a lot for your work.
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From my failed attempt to install 3.5 I have noticed that the standard installation keeps the same three partitions as 3.0 and that it also uses XFS. Will final release also use by default XFS or will it go for Ext4 as Ubuntu?
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Ext4 format for 3.5 has already been agreed on, and can be found in the "Next Release Roadmap" section in our documentation.
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Ok, thanks for your answer, AndrewT. Is there some way to install only the system corresponding to 3.5 beta and keep using the same /home partition I use for 3.0 (I guess I may manually select Ext4 for the "/" partition and install in it the boot images)? I have available 40 GB of free space, but if I have to create three new partitions on that free space for testing 3.5 my hard disk is going to become a real mess XD! All this, of course, provided that I can manage to properly burn the beta.
> Ok, thanks again for the prompt answer, I will test installing on a
> different partition. By the way, does 3.5 keeps three separate
> partitions for boot, system and home?
Not anymore. Now it uses one for system (ext4), one for swap and one
for home (xfs). Trisquel 2 and 3 used four partitions.
> As for the discussion about swfdec, as far as youtube is concerned, I
> wonder whether it is a problem of sfwdec or it has rather something
> to do with youtube configuration of their web pages.
Youtube just changed the viewer and encoder, it used to work with
swfdec, now it depends on the video, I think. They also broke the
compatibility with totem and other viewers.
> I have been unable to replace sfwdec with Gnash in my
> current installation to test which one works better and in which web
> pages, so perhaps 3.5 should provide some straight way to allow
> swapping from the one to the other.
You can just install one and remove the other. If you have both then
you need to use the update-alternatives system.
>Perhaps it is
> better not to waste space on the CD including a substitute for Gimp,
Gimp is a huge program oriented to designers and photographers.
Removing it is apropriate in many levels.
> More on disk space: have you considered issuing both a CD with a more
> basic set of programs and a fuller DVD? As far as it is clearly
> stated which are the main differences in content I think it should be
> fine.
It is not a bad idea, but we need to lower the amount of subprojects,
it is just too much work.
> A further question concerning packages, will VLC be included in the
> repositories?
It is already.
> You mention that this program would be easily
> installable to advanced users, but not all of us are advanced users.
I meant that VLC is more for advanced users than totem is. It will be
as easy to install as any other program.
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There is Shotwell or Solang. I've never used them but some friends of mine has spoken well of it.
El sáb, 20-02-2010 a las 12:22 +0100, name at domain
escribió:
> There is Shotwell or Solang. I've never used them but some friends of mine
> has spoken well of it.
I think Shotwell is not in the repositories. Solang is not localized in
Spanish and has no documentation.
Since F-Spot is a mono application, I'd suggest to replace it with
gThumb as gNewSense did.
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gThumb is already in Trisquel. We was thinking what program could replace GIMP if there's the need to replace it in the future.
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Perhaps GNU Paint?. That will save this distro roughly twenty megabytes for the LiveCD. It's a lightweight paint program based on XPaint that should take care of basic image editing.
Or we could include XPaint itself. It's not a pretty thing to look at, but it has better features (GNU Paint doesn't even have brush selection or undo/redo!).
This amount of freed disk space will free up more than enough to replace our current web browser with GNU IceCat. The reason I keep recommending we do this is because it won't have to be maintained by our dev team. They'll have other things to focus on besides trying to keep the browser from breaking.
GNUPaint is horrible because it lacks things like an undo feature, KolourPaint is a little better, though I do most of my graphics in Inkscape.
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GNUPaint is horrible, I agree. On that count, it rather reminds me of MS Paint. :P
XPaint is a good basic image editor and is so lightweight that it use any GTK+ libraries; its only major downside is the unsightliness of the interface.
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Has anyone already burnt and installed the image? I have burnt it twice on a DVD-RW and find that "check CD for errors" does not work properly. The CD light shows it seems to do something but you can only see a logo of Trisquel, no progress bar nor list of packages checked, nor does it notify anything when it finishes(?). When the CD light stops completely if you press enter key the computer will reboot, however. Installation from live-CD fails at some point: it displays a message stating that a language file has failed ("xxxxx.cat" or similar) and points to a possible Hard Disk failure. Taking into account that there seems to be some problem with error checking at the start I wonder if there might be some problem with the image -I suppose it is unlikely, but...-. Image MD5sum is correct.
> Has anyone already burnt and installed the image? I have burnt it
> twice on a DVD-RW and find that "check CD for errors" does not work
> properly.
The cd checker might need the usplash artwork to be updated, but you can
run it by removing the splash kernel parameter. You can also run
sudo md5sum /dev/cdrom
to see if the image was recorded properly.
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I have no luck with this issue. I have tried at least five more times with different DVDs -one from a different brand- and the command you suggest ("sudo md5sum /dev/cdrom") always returns the same result: b75be39a54e0cdb1dcc813a6b0c8f0b5 . The thing is that last three or four times I have recorded it with K3b, which calculates the md5sum of the image at the beginning -which is correct as I have already said- and also verifies the resulting copy, stating that the result is correct. However, when I run your command the result is always the above stated. am I doing something wrong? The only other media I have available are 700 MB CDs, but Brasero warns that it needs to use "overwrite mode" -or similar- and that it could cause errors.
Thanks again.
PS.- I append to my above post a further question concerning 3.5.
> I have no luck with this issue. I have tried at least five more times
> with different DVDs
I don't think the recording is the problem, but system compatibility.
Run the beta in the failsafe graphics mode and look for runtime errors.
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>I don't think the recording is the problem, but system compatibility.
>Run the beta in the failsafe graphics mode and look for runtime errors.
I come back still with the same problem: in failsafe graphics mode it loads fine -it does so in normal mode as well- and apparently with no errors. I have run the command "sudo md5sum /dev/cdrom" while in the live session and it still returns the same wrong md5sum (b75be39a54e0cdb1dcc813a6b0c8f0b5). Is there any parameter I may enter at boot to see the progression of the checking for errors process (i.e. without "splash")? If it is so, what should I enter exactly? Or, again, once I am in the live session may I run in some way the check CD for errors process? Thanks a lot again.
> I come back still with the same problem: in failsafe graphics mode it
> loads fine -it does so in normal mode as well- and apparently with no
> errors. I have run the command "sudo md5sum /dev/cdrom" while in the
> live session and it still returns the same wrong md5sum
> (b75be39a54e0cdb1dcc813a6b0c8f0b5). Is there any parameter I may
> enter at boot to see the progression of the checking for errors
> process (i.e. without "splash")? If it is so, what should I enter
> exactly? Or, again, once I am in the live session may I run in some
> way the check CD for errors process? Thanks a lot again.
You can try the 3.5 RC version, it should be working now.
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I have tested the .ISO from a LiveDVD for a couple of hours. Here are some observations and suggestions:
Software:
wastes space, but maintaining and bug-fixing Web Browser is far too much of a time and effort
drain for a project of Trisquel's size.
but Banshee is more feature-rich and approaches Amarok in its functionality.
look for a remote-controlled media center. Perhaps it should be removed to free up
space?
editors) to free up space.
Problems found with Web Browser:
Greasemonkey and these two scripts are installed by default:
http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/38074 and
http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/46219
that is uselessly incomplete. My user privelages don't include the ability to edit
and improve this list (and I would if I could!). Until this list gets sufficiently
populated, it should link here: http://www.gnu.org/software/gnuzilla/addons.html
-Minor/aesthetic suggestions:
has too many entries. PalmOS devices are now legacy hardware and very few people use
one.
instead of appearing under System → Administration.
for. Things are more likely to malfunction in a Free distro, so quick one-click
access to the terminal is good for userfriendliness.
> Replace our Web Browser with IceCat. It's true that IceCat is
> packaged incorrectly and
> wastes space, but maintaining and bug-fixing Web Browser is far too
> much of a time and effort
> drain for a project of Trisquel's size.
Seriously, IceCat and Abrowser are just the same! They are *not* forks
of Firefox, both Giuseppe Scrivano and I just take the original code,
and we apply the smallest set of changes we can come with. We throw the
old code away on every release (and keep the patch). Also, the properly
packaged Abrowser is already in the repository.
> Replace Rhythmbox with Banshee. Both programs are wonderful, and
> quite similar,
> but Banshee is more feature-rich and approaches Amarok in its
> functionality.
Banshee is mono based, and we do not include mono. Exaile, OTOH is very
nice and small. But the translation is poor. That happens with a lot of
packages if you choose not to use the Ubuntu default.
> Why is Moovida installed by default? I don't think a
> large percentage of our users
> look for a remote-controlled media center. Perhaps it should be
> removed to free up
> space?
I think it is a stunning program, very catchy and cool. It might
attract new users. And you can use the keyboard with it (as I do).
> Replace GIMP (an advanced image editor) with XPaint or MTPaint
> (basic image editors) to free up space.
We should do it, but by now it won't work right. The language packages
already include all the gimp translations and manuals (both are huge),
and removing the actual package would be a bigger waste than leaving it.
There are plans to replace it with something smaller in Ubuntu, we will
follow them in this.
>
> Problems found with Web Browser:
>
> Many YouTube videos do not and WILL NOT work in either swfdec or
> Gnash until Greasemonkey and these two scripts are installed by
> default: http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/38074 and
> http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/46219
Including those preinstalled is not easy to do. But we are aware of the
problem.
> “Get Extensions”, “Get Plugins” and “Get Themes” links under
> addons link to a list
> that is uselessly incomplete. My user privelages don't include the
> ability to edit
> and improve this list (and I would if I could!).
Now they do. :)
Until this list
> gets sufficiently
> populated, it should link here:
> http://www.gnu.org/software/gnuzilla/addons.html
This list links back to addons.mozilla.org for a lot of the addons,
rendering it pointless. That's why we started a new list that serves the
files (source included) by itself. But we need hands to fill it.
> An XML parsing error message comes up when I click “About Web
> Browser”.
This is fixed already.
>
> -Minor/aesthetic suggestions:
>
> "PalmOS devices” should be hidden from System → Preferences, which
> already
> has too many entries. PalmOS devices are now legacy hardware and very
> few people use
> one.
That was done in the current development image.
> The “Add/Remove Applications” item should be put back on the main
> Menu Bar,
> instead of appearing under System → Administration.
Fixed.
> At 42 pixels wide, the panel is too large. 34 pixels is a better
> width. The Trash icon should appear at the bottom-right corner of the
> desktop by default.
With 42 pixels the window list is two rows high, saving space.
> A Terminal icon should be placed in the bottom-left of the panel
> next to the icon
> for.
No way. If we need the terminal that bad, then we better start all over.
> Things are more likely to malfunction in a Free distro
Why?
>, so
> quick one-click
> access to the terminal is good for userfriendliness.
You can zero-click access your terminal anytime by pressing ctrl+alt+f1.
> USB startup disk creator should not feature the Ubuntu icon
> (already mentioned).
Yes, we are on it.
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I am a translator!
quidam,
"Banshee is mono based, and we do not include mono."
Tell me, what is the difference between including a mono application in the default install and including one in the main repository? Either way, they're both a part of the distro. This also applies to F-Spot.
This is a tricky issue. I'm going to write an e-mail to Richard Stallman about whether or not a free distro can include mono apps.
"With 42 pixels the window list is two rows high, saving space."
It saves horizontal space, I agree, but I don't think very many people intuitively use a panel that way in the first place.
"> Things are more likely to malfunction in a Free distro
Why?"
I was going to say: 'Because the lack of nonfree blobs and any proprietary firmware means less hardware compatibility', but I think there's actually a much better practical reason to include the terminal icon on the panel.
Many novice GNU/Linux users have no familiarity with the concept of a terminal. Despite the wonders Canonical has done to make GNU/Linux a first-rate choice for desktops, most users are going to find themselves using the command line sooner or later for some function that simply has no GUI equivalent, and most tutorials automatically assume you at least know what a terminal is; having the icon there tells the novice user that A.) This is important and B.) When tutorials tell you to "type this in a console", this is what they're talking about. It's easy for an expert to repeat the hotkey combination for the terminal, but I personally am not one to remember such details very well, and have a fragile train of thought when it comes to problem-solving. I can't be the only one. :P
"> “Get Extensions”, “Get Plugins” and “Get Themes” links under
> addons link to a list
> that is uselessly incomplete. My user privelages don't include the
> ability to edit
> and improve this list (and I would if I could!).
Now they do. :)"
I'll be on it. :)
> "Banshee is mono based, and we do not include mono."
>
> Tell me, what is the difference between including a mono application
> in the default install and including one in the main repository?
> Either way, they're both a part of the distro. This also applies to
> F-Spot.
Easy: mono wastes 12mb of the CD.
> This is a tricky issue. I'm going to write an e-mail to Richard
> Stallman about whether or not a free distro can include mono apps.
Mono is a free implementation of .NET, so it is not a problem to
distribute it. The problem with .NET is that it is covered by MS
patents, so they can force us to stop using it when they wish -at least
in the US-. That is a risk we should avoid, and removing mono from the
default installation is a way to tell the developers that something is
wrong with the platform. But there is nothing non-free in those programs
as they are, so we can distribute them -as long as we are allowed to-.
> "With 42 pixels the window list is two rows high, saving space."
>
> It saves horizontal space, I agree, but I don't think very many
> people intuitively use a panel that way in the first place.
Even less people uses the GNOME default two panel -same height-
combination because is intuitive. They do because it is the default
and somewhat cool because it looks weird.
> "> Things are more likely to malfunction in a Free distro
>
> Why?"
>
> I was going to say: 'Because the lack of nonfree blobs and any
> proprietary firmware means less hardware compatibility', but I think
> there's actually a much better practical reason to include the
> terminal icon on the panel.
Luky you didn't say it, because I would have said that nonfree stuff is
a lot more prone to failure as we cannot fix the bugs in a program we
cannot modify. And if a piece of hardware has no free driver, the only
thing you can do with the console is start typing a new driver.
> Many novice GNU/Linux users have no familiarity with the concept of
> a terminal. Despite the wonders Canonical has done to make GNU/Linux
> a first-rate choice for desktops, most users are going to find
> themselves using the command line sooner or later for some function
> that simply has no GUI equivalent,
That would be an advanced function, so it will be meant for
non-novices, people who can navigate a menu.
> and most tutorials automatically
> assume you at least know what a terminal is; having the icon there
> tells the novice user that
...GNU/Linux is a hard and scary OS for geeks.
> A.) This is important and B.) When
> tutorials tell you to "type this in a console", this is what they're
> talking about.
Whoever doesn't know what the terminal is shouldn't be tinkering with
it using tutorials that say "sudo something_important --with-a-hammer"
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>
>
> Mono is a free implementation of .NET, so it is not a problem to
> distribute it. The problem with .NET is that it is covered by MS
> patents, so they can force us to stop using it when they wish -at least
> in the US-. That is a risk we should avoid, and removing mono from the
> default installation is a way to tell the developers that something is
> wrong with the platform. But there is nothing non-free in those programs
> as they are, so we can distribute them -as long as we are allowed to-.
>
>
I agree with this.
> > "With 42 pixels the window list is two rows high, saving space."
> >
> > It saves horizontal space, I agree, but I don't think very many
> > people intuitively use a panel that way in the first place.
>
> Even less people uses the GNOME default two panel -same height-
> combination because is intuitive. They do because it is the default
> and somewhat cool because it looks weird.
>
> It is important to listen to what someone thinks. It is good to apreciate
other people's opinions. If you think this is an error you still have the
priviliedge to distribute it as you like. I f you are interested in really
doing what people ask, you cannot asume a position. You can find out
people's opinion with a poll.
> > "> Things are more likely to malfunction in a Free distro
> >
> > Why?"
> >
> > I was going to say: 'Because the lack of nonfree blobs and any
> > proprietary firmware means less hardware compatibility', but I think
> > there's actually a much better practical reason to include the
> > terminal icon on the panel.
>
> Luky you didn't say it, because I would have said that nonfree stuff is
> a lot more prone to failure as we cannot fix the bugs in a program we
> cannot modify. And if a piece of hardware has no free driver, the only
> thing you can do with the console is start typing a new driver.
>
>
I don't think this was his point.
> > Many novice GNU/Linux users have no familiarity with the concept of
> > a terminal. Despite the wonders Canonical has done to make GNU/Linux
> > a first-rate choice for desktops, most users are going to find
> > themselves using the command line sooner or later for some function
> > that simply has no GUI equivalent,
>
> That would be an advanced function, so it will be meant for
> non-novices, people who can navigate a menu.
>
>
I agree this would be great help for novices. When I teach students to enter
the console, it would be intuitive if it would be on the panel. Of course, I
can make my own variations of the distro and distribute it that way.
> > and most tutorials automatically
> > assume you at least know what a terminal is; having the icon there
> > tells the novice user that
>
> ...GNU/Linux is a hard and scary OS for geeks.
>
It is for most people I have met.
>
> > A.) This is important and B.) When
> > tutorials tell you to "type this in a console", this is what they're
> > talking about.
>
> Whoever doesn't know what the terminal is shouldn't be tinkering with
> it using tutorials that say "sudo something_important --with-a-hammer"
This is out of context. I think people should learn what they wish and it is
our duty to make it the easiest we can and not force them to learn the hard
way for the sake of it.
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"¿Sólo cuando el último árbol esté muerto, el último río envenenado y el
último pez atrapado nos daremos cuenta que no se puede comer dinero?"
"Only when the last tree is dead, the last river is poisoned and the last
fish is caught will we realize that money is not edible?"
> > Even less people uses the GNOME default two panel -same height-
> > combination because is intuitive. They do because it is the default
> > and somewhat cool because it looks weird.
> >
> > It is important to listen to what someone thinks. It is good to
> > apreciate
> other people's opinions. If you think this is an error you still have
> the priviliedge to distribute it as you like. I f you are interested
> in really doing what people ask, you cannot asume a position. You can
> find out people's opinion with a poll.
I think 8 pixels are not important enough to start a poll. Also,
changing the panel look and feel is a matter of a few clicks.
There is no way we can have a preset that works for everybody, so we
will just keep a sense of continuity.
> > > I was going to say: 'Because the lack of nonfree blobs and any
> > > proprietary firmware means less hardware compatibility', but I
> > > think there's actually a much better practical reason to include
> > > the terminal icon on the panel.
> >
> > Luky you didn't say it, because I would have said that nonfree
> > stuff is a lot more prone to failure as we cannot fix the bugs in a
> > program we cannot modify. And if a piece of hardware has no free
> > driver, the only thing you can do with the console is start typing
> > a new driver.
> >
> >
> I don't think this was his point.
Maybe, but mine is that, if anything, a fully free distro is more
stable than one including obscured bunchs of bits you can't control.
> > ...GNU/Linux is a hard and scary OS for geeks.
>
> It is for most people I have met.
Then we need to change that! Giving the terminal the same importance as
the web browser is not the way to achieve it.
> > Whoever doesn't know what the terminal is shouldn't be tinkering
> > with it using tutorials that say "sudo something_important
> > --with-a-hammer"
>
> This is out of context. I think people should learn what they wish
> and it is our duty to make it the easiest we can and not force them
> to learn the hard way for the sake of it.
Sure they should. But what I meant is that those users that barely know
what the terminal is should not have it in the panel just to make
easier for others to get them to run commands they do not understand.
And also, I don't thing browsing a menu is a hard way in any case.
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Unfortunately, I'm still unable to edit our list of browser addons, extensions, and themes.
> Unfortunately, I'm still unable to edit our list of browser addons,
> extensions, and themes.
Look in the right menu: Create content > addon.
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Some issues:
The list of licenses needs to include the Mozilla Tri-license.
The files wouldn't upload, either. But I think uploading versions of these addons to the website poses a problem in itself. It is a design flaw.
The horrors of manually maintaining a big list of addons and source code that changes (and potentially breaks) from version to version could be averted by simply linking to the download on the Mozilla website, for example https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/downloads/latest/10900/addon-10900-latest.xpi instead of having to host the files on this server. The user doesn't see the Mozilla website if we do this, only the download.
I hope the proliferation of an ultra-orthodox interpretation of the idea of "recommending nonfree software" doesn't override the very obvious advantages of linking to the latest hosted Mozilla version.
El lun, 22-02-2010 a las 20:45 +0100, name at domain escribió:
> -Minor/aesthetic suggestions:
>
> "PalmOS devices” should be hidden from System → Preferences, which
> already
> has too many entries. PalmOS devices are now legacy hardware and very few
> people use
> one.
> The “Add/Remove Applications” item should be put back on the main Menu
> Bar,
> instead of appearing under System → Administration.
I think System → Administration is the right place, since adding and
removing applications require administrative privilege.
> At 42 pixels wide, the panel is too large. 34 pixels is a better width.
> The Trash icon should appear at the bottom-right corner of the desktop by
> default.
> A Terminal icon should be placed in the bottom-left of the panel next to the
> icon
> for. Things are more likely to malfunction in a Free distro, so quick
> one-click
> access to the terminal is good for userfriendliness.
My parents have used gNewSense (and Trisquel soon) for a year and
they've never had to use a terminal :) (they have a year of experience
using computers). So, currently, I think terminal access is easy enough
for people who may need it.
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I've finished the art I've been working on, all under GPL. Download it, try it out, and offer honest feedback. I've strongly decided on the color green for this set, to commemorate our efforts to keeping the disk size of the distro at sustainable levels. :P
3.5 Background: http://i50.tinypic.com/2znzn9c.jpg
3.5 Login Menu: http://www.mediafire.com/?wumdnzygxgi
3.5 usplash: http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=hwnntm4dz3o&thumb=4
http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=yu0ymojtzjy&thumb=4
http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=jntgj3izyyy&thumb=4
The first picture is a preview of the usplash when loading is 100%. The second picture is the proper background that needs to be used. The third picture is the load bar.
Note that I have no ability to write C code and couldn't even get a tar.gz to compile to a .so, and these links are just the art; somebody will need to write or adapt a few lines of C code for this, and compile a .so using this background and loading bar.
As for a GRUB screen, I tried to create one, but the current one is simply too perfect. :) There's no real need to change GRUB screens from version to version; need I remind anyone that Ubuntu even leaves it blank?
On Tue, 2010-02-23 at 05:55 +0100, name at domain wrote:
> I've finished the art I've been working on, all under GPL. Download it, try
> it out, and offer honest feedback. I've strongly decided on the color green
> for this set, to commemorate our efforts to keeping the disk size of the
> distro at sustainable levels. :P
>
> 3.5 Background: http://i50.tinypic.com/2znzn9c.jpg
>
Honest feedback...
That background is terrible. While the centre is no brighter than the
white background I'm typing this email on, it still appears much
brighter to a point that it's very unpleasant to look at, making me feel
like I need to squint.
The other pictures I could see though, the mediafire site seems to be
blocked here in China and I can't be bothered getting around the great
firewall at the moment. Perhaps you could use http://www.imgur.com in
the future?
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> I've finished the art I've been working on, all under GPL.
First of all, many thanks for your effort. Sadly, the changes coming
from upstream will limit our themeing possibilities a lot :(
> Download
> it, try it out, and offer honest feedback. I've strongly decided on
> the color green for this set, to commemorate our efforts to keeping
> the disk size of the distro at sustainable levels. :P
>
> 3.5 Background: http://i50.tinypic.com/2znzn9c.jpg
Hmm, I don't like it, sorry. :(
> 3.5 Login Menu: http://www.mediafire.com/?wumdnzygxgi
We are going to be a lot more limited with the artwork than we used to
be, as the upstream changes in gdm removed the theme support. We can
just change the gtk/icon theme and the background image. I like the
texture -not that much the colors- in your background image.
> 3.5 usplash:
> http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=hwnntm4dz3o&thumb=4
>
> http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=yu0ymojtzjy&thumb=4
>
> http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=jntgj3izyyy&thumb=4
The limitations also affect usplash, with the new startup system we
have progress bar no more. Also, we discovered usplash is not very
optimized, so the smallest the image the better it works. That is the
reason Ubuntu uses just a pulsating icon now, and we will follow them.
> As for a GRUB screen, I tried to create one, but the current one is
> simply too perfect. :) There's no real need to change GRUB screens
> from version to version;
As this update also changes from grub to grub2, we lost the gfxboot
support. Now we can just use a background image -that should match the
gdm/desktop in some way.
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I thought I was going to get criticism for the dull and foggy color scheme and intense white levels of my background...
Here is a redone version with much richer coloration: http://i49.tinypic.com/291cpq0.jpg
"We are going to be a lot more limited with the artwork than we used to
be, as the upstream changes in gdm removed the theme support. We can
just change the gtk/icon theme and the background image. I like the
texture -not that much the colors- in your background image."
Why would they remove theme support!?
"The limitations also affect usplash, with the new startup system we
have progress bar no more. Also, we discovered usplash is not very
optimized, so the smallest the image the better it works. That is the
reason Ubuntu uses just a pulsating icon now, and we will follow them."
You can't honestly tell me that a fast, modern computer in 2010 is going to choke on an image, can you? Is it really now impossible to include a load bar, or is it simply a matter of changing some source code around?
To restate the question: why have recent updates elected to remove functionality, breaking lots of beloved hard work of many contributors on gnome-look.org and elsewhere? Tell me the reason behind it, so that I may feel like a naive stupid.
I am a translator!
I thought I was going to get criticism for the dull and foggy color scheme and intense white levels of my background...
Here is a redone version with much richer coloration: http://i49.tinypic.com/291cpq0.jpg
"We are going to be a lot more limited with the artwork than we used to
be, as the upstream changes in gdm removed the theme support. We can
just change the gtk/icon theme and the background image. I like the
texture -not that much the colors- in your background image."
Why would they remove theme support!?
"The limitations also affect usplash, with the new startup system we
have progress bar no more. Also, we discovered usplash is not very
optimized, so the smallest the image the better it works. That is the
reason Ubuntu uses just a pulsating icon now, and we will follow them."
You can't honestly tell me that a fast, modern computer in 2010 is going to choke on an image, can you? Is it really now impossible to include a load bar, or is it simply a matter of changing some source code around?
To restate the question: why have recent updates elected to remove functionality, breaking lots of beloved hard work of many contributors on gnome-look.org and elsewhere? Tell me the reason behind it, so that I may feel like a naive stupid.
> I thought I was going to get criticism for the dull and foggy color
> scheme and intense white levels of my background...
>
> Here is a redone version with much richer coloration:
> http://i49.tinypic.com/291cpq0.jpg
Well, the colors *are* richer.
> "We are going to be a lot more limited with the artwork than we used
> to be, as the upstream changes in gdm removed the theme support. We
> can just change the gtk/icon theme and the background image. I like
> the texture -not that much the colors- in your background image."
>
> Why would they remove theme support!?
They say they did it to make better use of the xsplash boot screen
system -that we will not use, at least for this release-.
> You can't honestly tell me that a fast, modern computer in 2010 is
> going to choke on an image, can you? Is it really now impossible to
> include a load bar, or is it simply a matter of changing some source
> code around?
Well, we can _have_ a bar, but it will not show the progress as the new
start scripts coming from Ubuntu (upstart) do not work that way. So it
will just pulsate forth and back meaningless.
> To restate the question: why have recent updates elected to remove
> functionality, breaking lots of beloved hard work of many
> contributors on gnome-look.org and elsewhere? Tell me the reason
> behind it, so that I may feel like a naive stupid.
We are just distributors, we just take the code we are given. In other
words, I dunno. But don't worry, you are not the only one pissed with
this changes.
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"Well, the colors *are* richer."
To be blunt, how else is my background ugly?
"Well, we can _have_ a bar, but it will not show the progress as the new
start scripts coming from Ubuntu (upstart) do not work that way. So it
will just pulsate forth and back meaningless."
Why do we necessarily have to use Ubuntu's? Pardon me, this is still very much a learning process for me, so I would like to know if there is some technical limitation against staying with the old usplash system if it suits us better?
2010/2/23 <name at domain>
> "Well, the colors *are* richer."
>
> To be blunt, how else is my background ugly?
>
>
Some feedback:
- I would change to a warm color palette.
- The texture is rough and distracting. I would use a softer texture.
- What's the purpose of your background? If your purpose is to direct
attention to the Trisquel logo, you should change the light intensity.
Currently, the light is too bright and force you to look at the white spot
in the center.
But I think that "criticism is easy, art is difficult".
--
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xmpp:name at domain <name at domain>
sip:name at domain <name at domain>
> To be blunt, how else is my background ugly?
Well, I appreciate the effort, but I just don't like the image.
> Why do we necessarily have to use Ubuntu's? Pardon me, this is still
> very much a learning process for me, so I would like to know if there
> is some technical limitation against staying with the old usplash
> system if it suits us better?
The usplash system is the same, but the boot scripts are new and they
don't tell usplash about the steps done, so the usplash theme cannot
show the progress properly. It doesn't matter anyway, as now the X are
spawned so early the usplash can only be seen for very few seconds.
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