Why should I continue with Triaquel 5.5 or anything related to it?

Take a look at all the forums posted and count them.

HOW MANY PEOPLE are ASKING FOR HELP OR ADVISE, because those WiFi proprietary Drivers are not working?

Come on people get real!!

A lot of us, don't wish to spend any extra money, we want to be able to use them normally, those WiFi proprietary components of that PC. Unless you could afford it, or don't care about spending for in-necessarily upgrades, then Is your choice and lost capital. You already made that investment once.

You *do* have a choice: you have a choice of what distro to use (you can use a distro that includes nonfree software if you wish; there are plenty of those), and you can choose to install choice nonfree software yourself.

The whole point of Trisquel is to be free of this nonfree software. If you don't care about the issue of software freedom, this distro isn't for you. But what we, who do care, definitely don't need is for the distros we can use that include no nonfree software to start including nonfree software. There are currently only 8 distros in this category, 5 of which haven't been updated in a long time, and *hundreds* if not thousands of distros that include nonfree software such as drivers and firmware. Ubuntu, Linux Mint, Debian... all of these and many, many others are suitable for people who don't care about freedom. There's even Fedora or OpenBSD (and others, I'm sure) if the only nonfree software you want is firmware.

Clearly, you think nonfree firmware is good because of compatibility. What you are not noticing is that reliance on this nonfree firmware makes you dependent. At some point, the nonfree firmware blob will stop working and the device will be useless. The only way to avoid this is to only buy hardware that works completely with free software, such as what you can find at http://libre.thinkpenguin.com.

Use the Ubuntu kernel if you want to use this nonfree drivers, or use
appropriate nonfree drivers from separate Ubuntu packages if you want.

We don't distribute nor recommend using these nor say how to do it. We
don't restrict what other kernels or drivers you can install. (It's the
same for non-kernel software.)

Such policies of not promoting nonfree drivers have contributed to
firmware for two or three drivers being freed (one isn't released yet)
and releasing many reverse-engineered drivers (there are also
significant non-driver cases of software being freed due to
distributions not including nonfree software). There are people who buy
freedom-respecting hardware and choose Trisquel to know that they don't
get nonfree software without knowing it.

Donations are pointless unless they contribute to a goal, distributing
proprietary software won't help people control their computing.

You may find this to be an interesting read, considering some of the
ideas you've expressed.

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/compromise.html

Using or not using non-free software on Trisquel is YOUR choice. You are free to become a slave to the the owner of the code and pull us all to that. Nevertheless, we will not help you do such harm onto yourself or will we do such harm onto others.

Freedom to enslave others by giving them non-free software is not freedom. It is imposition and enslavement. The slave can choose enslavement but that does not make him free.

Many slaves have critisized their libertors but that has been a not a reason for the latter to stop.

We are all slaves to one thing or another but we must fight against it. Some people give up their lives for this reason!

Your looking at this all wrong. The problem is the proprietary drivers. The reason Trisquel removes these pieces is because the developers and users aren't able to fix problems, make improvements, etc.

Proprietary drivers are bad. It doesn't matter which side of the street your on.

The question is how to fix the problem that there are disagreements over. The one side says promote free software in any way possible (even if that means using proprietary software to do so). If it breaks “ohh well”. The problem with that thinking is most users who are non-technical are going to run into problems and give up.

Examples:

Adobe discontinues support for adobe flash- the GNU/Linux community is screwed. There is no way for the community to pick up the development of flash. Now you can continue to use flash but ONLY if you download Chrome.

Sun released the code for Java. Unfortunately it isn't a complete solution and releases a non-free version side by side. Oracle buys Sun and discontinues the license portion which allows the non-free version to be distributed by third parties. This creates a problem because companies like Canonical can no longer push updates to the proprietary software. This is a security problem. Canonical is now forced to issue an “update” that removes this software. That results in breakage. Users end up finding that the web sites that use to work now don't. They blame Linux. They should be blaming these bad policies.

Now we get to hardware. The benefits to supporting proprietary software here are thin. The advantage is new users might have more hardware working out of the box. The downside is it promotes the idea that proprietary software actually works with GNU/Linux. The problem is it doesn't work well.

So why doesn't it work well? There are all sorts of issues with how GNU/Linux is developed. There is no stable ABI. In order for some drivers to fully support GNU/Linux there would need to be stabilization. However this would hold GNU/Linux back and prevent certain improvements/advancements/etc that make GNU/Linux what it is. The solution is to require the complete source code. This would also ensure that users are able to get drivers beyond the life expectancy of the product (that is longer than the product is for sale). In many cases you would only have a working product (say a printer) for a year. After which point that printer will no longer work. This is not a problem that can be solved easily simply by accepting non-free software.

The solution is to let users know that they need to purchase a new sound card, a new wifi card, a new graphics card, with proper support (free software support) for “Linux” etc. This is actually much easier and less costly than messing around with getting things like NDISWrapper working or screwing around with a terminal to download some proprietary firmware that can't be redistributed due to a restrictive licensing agreement. This NIDSWrapper program loads proprietary Microsoft Windows drivers and creates instability in the system. Half the time you get wifi signals which drop. On the chance it does work well enough to use it creates instability in the OS. The software makes clear it is a hack to the problem. The fact people are advised to use it is bad advice. Then when things crash and burn people blame “Linux”.

No. The solution to the problem is to understand the value of free software and embrace it. If your going to accept that you need to buy a Mac to get Mac OS X support there shouldn't be any reason the GNU/Linux world can't recommend hardware with proper support for the OS. It s**** that you have to replace a component or two. However it is much better to do this and learn how to solve the real problem than wasting the time and energy to get some device with half-*** support working. Then users will know better and buy properly supported hardware going forward and never have to “deal with Linux again” (and without abandoning it altogether because it is too hard).

And I'm going to point out that while this might touch on the ethical issue it isn't the ethical reason for not using non-free software. It is a technical reason.

I'll let others go into the ethical side. You can also go to www.fsf.org to read up more on the ethics of free software.

Using or not using non-free software on Trisquel is YOUR choice. You are free
to become a slave to the the owner of the code and pull us all to that.
Nevertheless, we will not help you do such a harm onto yourself or will we do
it onto others.

Freedom to enslave others by giving them non-free software is not freedom. It
is imposition and enslavement. The slave can choose enslavement but that does
not make him free.

Many slaves have critisized their libertors but that has not a reason for the
latter to stop.

We are all slaves to one thing or another but we must fight aginst it. Some
people give up their lives for this reason!

quiliro and everyone else,

Since you answer my question.

If the company, that Owns those proprietary drivers has posted to the public their own version of binary Linux code , will that unlock them from the black list?

Yes.

The below link will guide straight into the Linux binary code for my WiFi Drivers of my supposedly Proprietary Drives.

http://www.mediatek.com/_en/07_downloads/01_windows.php?sn=501

This is the model.
RT2500PCI/mPCI/CB(RT2560)(Source Code) or RT2860PCI/mPCI/CB/PCIe(RT2760/RT2790/RT2860/RT2890)

Remembered I'm not a Linux guru, just a nob,
How do I compile those binary code to work my WiFi drivers?

Chris

Thank You for your super informative comments.

Your looking at this all wrong. The problem is the proprietary drivers. The
reason Trisquel removes these pieces is because the developers and users
aren't able to fix problems, make improvements, etc.

Proprietary drivers are bad. It doesn't matter which side of the street your
on.

The question is how to fix the problem that there are disagreements over. The
one side says promote free software in any way possible. If it breaks “ohh
well”. The problem with that thinking is most users who are non-technical
are going to run into problems with the unsupportable software.

Examples:

Adobe discontinues support for adobe flash- the GNU/Linux community is
screwed. There is no way for the community to pick up the development of
flash. Now you can continue to use flash but ONLY if you download Chrome.

Sun released the code for Java. Unfortunately it isn't a complete solution
and releases a non-free version side by side. Oracle buys Sun and
discontinues the license portion which allows the non-free version to be
distributed by third parties. This creates a problem because companies like
Canonical can no longer push updates to the proprietary software. This is a
security problem. Canonical is now forced to issue an “update” that
removes this software. That results in breakage. Users end up finding that
the web sites that use to work now don't. They blame Linux. They should be
blaming these bad policies.

Now we get to hardware. The benefits to supporting proprietary software here
are thin. The advantage is new users might have more hardware working out of
the box. The downside is it promotes the idea that proprietary software
actually works with GNU/Linux. The problem is it doesn't work well.

So why doesn't it work well? There are all sorts of issues with how GNU/Linux
is developed. There is no stable ABI. In order for some drivers to fully
support GNU/Linux there would need to be stabilization. However this would
hold GNU/Linux back and prevent certain improvements/advancements/etc that
make GNU/Linux what it is. The solution is to require the complete source
code. This would also ensure that users are able to get drivers beyond the
life expectancy of the product (that is longer than the product is for sale).
In many cases you would only have a working product (say a printer) for a
year. After which point that printer will no longer work. This is not a
problem that can be solved easily simply by accepting non-free software.

The solution is to let users know that they need to purchase a new sound
card, a new wifi card, a new graphics card, with proper support (free
software support) for “Linux” etc. This is actually much easier and less
costly than messing around with getting things like NDISWrapper working or
screwing around with a terminal to download some proprietary firmware that
can't be redistributed due to a restrictive licensing agreement. This
NIDSWrapper program loads proprietary Microsoft Windows drivers and creates
instability in the system. Half the time you get wifi signals which drop. On
the chance it does work well enough to use it creates instability in the OS.
The software makes clear it is a hack to the problem. The fact people are
advised to use it is bad advice. Then when things crash and burn people blame
“Linux”.

No. The solution to the problem is to understand the value of free software
and embrace it. If your going to accept that you need to buy a Mac to get Mac
OS X support there shouldn't be any reason the GNU/Linux world can't
recommend hardware with proper support for the OS. It s**** that you have to
replace a component or two. However it is much better to do this and learn
how to solve the real problem than wasting the time and energy to get some
device with half-*** support working. Then users will know better and buy
properly supported hardware going forward and never have to “deal with
Linux again” (and without abandoning it altogether because it is too hard).

quiliro and everyone else,

Since you answer my question.

If the company, that Owns those proprietary drivers has posted to the public
their own version of binary Linux code , will that unlock them from the black
list?

Yes.

The below link will guide straight into the Linux binary code for my WiFi
Drivers of my supposedly Proprietary Drives.

http://www.mediatek.com/_en/07_downloads/01_windows.php?sn=501

This is the model.
RT2500PCI/mPCI/CB(RT2560)(Source Code) or
RT2860PCI/mPCI/CB/PCIe(RT2760/RT2790/RT2860/RT2890)

Remembered I'm not a Linux guru, just a nob,
How do I compile those binary code to work my WiFi drivers?

Hello there,

I you gave your opinion (and I respect it totally) the I will give mine if you let me.

Before anything, I just love to see how bombastic this kind of topics can be in places like this. It is like talking about sex in a church. But that's another thing.

Here is my point of view.
I understand totally what you say and I agree at 100% with it. I will not say no. BUT (and there is a BUT) this is what happened and and should be hapenning.

At the beginning of the informatique, when programming starting to enter the high classified universities all over the US, everything was open (I am not using the word free), and why ? Because there was no reason for it to be otherwise ! What happen to new things that start as closed (again that word :D) thosedays by a single guy ? They simply die (it is a matter of fact not an opinion) unless they are cheap.

Now we have 2 camps, the Linus Torvalds camp that only created a Kernel with the idea that it should work on his machine, and the Richard Stallman camp with the idea that everything should be free (as in free speech) because everyone around him start going to all those "Evil" and "non-free" corporations that wanted to make money out of everything they touched (we need money to live, I don't aprove that, but once again it's a fact).

Years have passed and we are in 2013. Now this is what I think personally:

Gnu/Linux (System + Kernel) was created under the idea that everything should be free (as in free speech). But then it started to atract convience (not sure if this is the word I want), and non-free drivers start to populate the kernel (when they shouldn't). Long story short, because of this we have now totally free distributions like Trisquel that removed all of the non-free stuff from a simple distribution to be used daily.

I don't want non-free stuff on my computer and this is why I choosed Gnu/Linux. Nothing more ! If I wanted non-free stuff I would choose Windows. And if I wanted non-free stuff that would only work under a certain machine with a certain brand I would choose a Mac.

We can't go the house of other people and just say them to chance. This has been done by many in the past, and those many I love to call them "convenient users" to not call them anything else. I have been myself a "convenient user" and when something wasn't working I would switch directly to Windows or simply let him side-by-side with Ubuntu in order to get anything working. But then I started to understand the problem... From Adobe that stopped the support, from nVidia and the security bug that gives root access and hasn't been solved since 2004, the Ati Catalyst drivers that wouldn't work unless you use your Ubuntu at 5pm with a metal hat in the sunlight.

But today we can't change the past. Linus can't just say "Hey! Let's remove all the blobs :D"... well he can but he doesn't want.

So what can I do ? I can create an exact copy of that house and remove all of those things that I don't want. And be sure that I would not fall into the pression of other convenient users that didn't understand why my house is yello and not blue.

So to finish. I understand what you say my good sir. I have a mother which doesn't get a thing about computers and just want it to run in order to go to facebook and play those proprietary games with that proprietary flash. What can I do ? Well I can teach her, but they don't want to know about computers, because it's not their thing. So I have to give her Chrome with Flash with Facebook. But there is something I can do for sure since I am a programmer... I can work on it, I can create an alternative, I can do anything in my power with my knowledge in order to give them an alternative that would be compiling with what I believe and would work with what she wants.

Now if I let myself say... well... why do the work if Chrome + Flash + Facebook works already.. ? Then I would become "another one" a normal people that wouldn't care about my liberty and would let anyone do what they want with my stuff. This is not my way of thinking and this is not my fiolosy.

And this is why I (try to) use my knowledge in order to help the translation for those that just want "things to work with no problems". Until then, they have to use the same software. Ubuntu if they really are into the jump (remember that I didn't jumped directly from Windows to Trisquel...). Or Windows/MacOsX if they see too much television and/or advertisments make them want anything they buy.

This is what I feel and what I think. I'm pretty sure a lot of people here think the same. But we are all different. So I understand you correctly, but you also have to understand me (as a community) perfectly. If you want proprietary stuff me (as an individual) would be glade to help, just in order to see you happy. But this is not the place, and will never be.

Now just remember something. This is not about profit or publicity. This is about an idea. A way of life and a way of thinking.

Maybe I am wrong.. but there is no way to know it until I've try it :D

I'm sorry for my bad english, so if something was weird in the text or seemed offensive just excuse me :D

Best Regards,
Luis

Hello there,

I you gave your opinion (and I respect it totally) the I will give mine if
you let me.

Before anything, I just love to see how bombastic this kind of topics can be
in places like this. It is like talking about sex in a church. But that's
another thing.

Here is my point of view.
I understand totally what you say and I agree at 100% with it. I will not say
no. BUT (and there is a BUT) this is what happened and and should be
hapenning.

At the beginning of the informatique, when programming starting to enter the
high classified universities all over the US, everything was open (I am not
using the word free), and why ? Because there was no reason for it to be
otherwise ! What happen to new things that start as closed (again that word
:D) thosedays by a single guy ? They simply die (it is a matter of fact not
an opinion) unless they are cheap.

Now we have 2 camps, the Linus Torvalds camp that only created a Kernel with
the idea that it should work on his machine, and the Richard Stallman camp
with the idea that everything should be free (as in free speech) because
everyone around him start going to all those "Evil" and "non-free"
corporations that wanted to make money out of everything they touched (we
need money to live, I don't aprove that, but once again it's a fact).

Years have passed and we are in 2013. Now this is what I think personally:

Gnu/Linux (System + Kernel) was created under the idea that everything should
be free (as in free speech). But then it started to atract convience (not
sure if this is the word I want), and non-free drivers start to populate the
kernel (when they shouldn't). Long story short, because of this we have now
totally free distributions like Trisquel that removed all of the non-free
stuff from a simple distribution to be used daily.

I don't want non-free stuff on my computer and this is why I choosed
Gnu/Linux. Nothing more ! If I wanted non-free stuff I would choose Windows.
And if I wanted non-free stuff that would only work under a certain machine
with a certain brand I would choose a Mac.

We can't go the house of other people and just say them to chance. This has
been done by many in the past, and those many I love to call them "convenient
users" to not call them anything else. I have been myself a "convenient user"
and when something wasn't working I would switch directly to Windows or
simply let him side-by-side with Ubuntu in order to get anything working. But
then I started to understand the problem... From Adobe that stopped the
support, from nVidia and the security bug that gives root access and hasn't
been solved since 2004, the Ati Catalyst drivers that wouldn't work unless
you use your Ubuntu at 5pm with a metal hat in the sunlight.

But today we can't change the past. Linus can't just say "Hey! Let's remove
all the blobs :D"... well he can but he doesn't want.

So what can I do ? I can create an exact copy of that house and remove all of
those things that I don't want. And be sure that I would not fall into the
pression of other convenient users that didn't understand why my house is
yello and not blue.

So to finish. I understand what you say my good sir. I have a mother which
doesn't get a thing about computers and just want it to run in order to go to
facebook and play those proprietary games with that proprietary flash. What
can I do ? Well I can teach her, but they don't want to know about computers,
because it's not their thing. So I have to give her Chrome with Flash with
Facebook. But there is something I can do for sure since I am a programmer...
I can work on it, I can create an alternative, I can do anything in my power
with my knowledge in order to give them an alternative that would be
compiling with what I believe and would work with what she wants.

Now if I let myself say... well... why do the work if Chrome + Flash +
Facebook works already.. ? Then I would become "another one" a normal people
that wouldn't care about my liberty and would let anyone do what they want
with my stuff. This is not my way of thinking and this is not my fiolosy.

And this is why I (try to) use my knowledge in order to help the translation
for those that just want "things to work with no problems". Until then, they
have to use the same software. Ubuntu if they really are into the jump
(remember that I didn't jumped directly from Windows to Trisquel...). Or
Windows/MacOsX if they see too much television and/or advertisments make them
want anything they buy.

This is what I feel and what I think. I'm pretty sure a lot of people here
think the same. But we are all different. So I understand you correctly, but
you also have to understand me (as a community) perfectly. If you want
proprietary stuff me (as an individual) would be glade to help, just in order
to see you happy. But this is not the place, and will never be.

Now just remember something. This is not about profit or publicity. This is
about an idea. A way of life and a way of thinking.

Maybe I am wrong.. but there is no way to know it until I've try it :D

I'm sorry for my bad english, so if something was weird in the text or seemed
offensive just excuse me :D

Best Regards,
Luis

The costs of the time wasted dealing with non-free issues usually far exceeds
that of replacing the hardware in the long term. It may be easier in some
cases to initially have support for non-free components. However it is not to
the users advantage to do so long term. It also fails to teach users the
problems of dependence on non-free software. All of which creates more
problems.

Nobody is forcing you to use Trisquel. A lot of Trisquel users have come to
Trisquel from distributions such as Ubuntu, Linux Mint, and others. They have
realized the ethical problems and want to help promote free software.

The time wasted dealing with non-free issues far exceeds that of replacing
the hardware. It may be easier in some cases for users to initially have
support for non-free components the first time they try out GNU/Linux.
However it is not to the users advantage or to developers advantage to do so
long term. It also fails to teach users about the problems of dependence on
non-free software.

Nobody is forcing anyone to use Trisquel. A lot of Trisquel users have come
to Trisquel from distribution such as Ubuntu, Linux Mint, and others. They
have realized the problems (most often ethical issues) and want to help
promote companies and developers who are trying to fix these problems.

Users here will help others to work around the lack of support for non-free
software. They will point you to ethernet cables as an example if you can't
or don't want to invest in a USB or other wifi adapter for example. Some of
the people who post here are not even on Trisquel. They are on other free
distributions or haven't quite made the jump to a 100% free distribution.

However the one thing everybody here has in common is the desire to promote /
support free software.

I've found performance and connection strength to be better with the Atheros 802.11n chipsets than the Ralink ones that required non-free drivers and firmware.

I've found performance and connection strength to be better with the Atheros
802.11n chipsets than the Ralink ones that required non-free drivers and
firmware.

>
> Respectfully
> This is just my humble opinion.

Saying this does not compensate for the following

>
> Jodiendo
>
>
Which is a curse word in Spanish. Makes me think this was done by a troll.

Aliasbody and Andrezs Muniz

The usage of the word “Jodiendo” comes with its own flavor, innuendo’s and purpose. All depends on the region you are from.

I use the nickname, because my family, uses it in many forms of expression and characters. It could be Good, bad or ugly. You will have to understand the body language and the tone of the voice and the event, in how that word is match and used. For me, is not a Course word , but for others it is.

It cannot be worst to have a last name “cuero”, yet the word himself defines “Skin” but in my culture it means “ Low life woman.”
Basically, it is different folks with different strokes.

Do you know you could use different flavors of “Jodiendo” in Spanish? Such as: Hay que Joderse!, Hay, que jodienda!, No jodas!, Jodete!
Blame this word for the Spaniard conquistadores, who taught us, great Spanish expressions.

This expression is being used in my family since 1779, yet the famous one was my great- great, grandfather who fought during the Spanish American war of 1899 on the Spaniard side, who was capture by the US troops in Cuba, deported to Spain, migrated back to the Island, and every time he saw a Northerner he will said: “Hay que jodienda! son estos Norte- Americanos”. Funny thing, it is recorded on one of his journal he that he kept of the Spanish American war. In other words he was admiring and welcoming the USA troops according to his notes.

Yet, when it comes to TRISQUEL and those proprietary WiFi drivers; I would say: “Hay que JodIenda es Trisquel!

I decided to keep on “trucking” with Trisquel.

My decision is not based on other people opinions or software policies, but is totally influence on my research, pointing to the lack of performance of the hardware himself. I took me some time, researching, about those Railing drivers and did encounter that the true Wi-Fi experience, it is restricted and limited, due to firmware restrictions. Knowing this issue, I decided to “scrap” the old Wi-Fi PCI module and purchase one from the Penguin site. Yet, I discover that Christ does sells the”Free version,” the unlock kind.

At the same time, I do say to everyone, who participated in this forum, Thank You for your opinioned thoughts and writing.
In my opinion:
Hay que Joderse with Trisquel, ethics and Philosophy!

Trisquel is free and free of choice.. no compulsion.