X200 in 2023
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The X200 still feels completely adequate for basic computing needs in 2023. Word processing, web browsing, and even watching movies while connected to a projector are still as good as gold.
I never imagined I'd still be using a computer from 2008 (15 years old!) this far into the future. May this machine live long and prosper.
That's great to hear! It's a testament to the durability and longevity of well-built hardware. It's also a reminder that we don't always need the latest and greatest technology to meet our computing needs. Using older hardware can be an ethical choice, as it reduces e-waste and contributes to a more sustainable future. Not to mention the most important: Libreboot.
I am a member!
Libreboot.at is NOT the official libreboot website. https://libreboot.org is the real libreboot site.
Typing this from my own X200. It's a wonderful machine. Perfectly adequate for most office needs and with a few workarounds it does everything I need a computer to do. Using a machine with limited power and resources has changed the way I think about doing my computing.
Modern laptops cannot hold a candle to the build quality of this thing. I'll be sad if it dies, but I see some promising SBCs being developed. It won't be too long before we can use high quality, fully custom, fully free machines assembled from brand new components. I hope to be a part of it when it happens.
Incidentally, if anyone has a source for high quality ThinkPad batteries I would be glad to know of it.
I have had a positive experience with Laptop Battery Express.
I would say my T400 is fine for basic uses as mentioned above but even with a 9 cell battery my T400 gets shredded by my Pinebook Pro when it comes to battery life. Granted i'm using a T400 with a Q9300. Not sure how the dual core models fair.
I use a T60 with mini. I can still do email, watch YT using Invidious and school work. I wish I can find a matrix chat with encryption that's light enough to run.
I'm not a Matrix user, but if you're open to XMPP then profanity-im supports OMEMO encrypted conversations.
> I use a T60 with mini. I can still do email, watch YT using Invidious and
> school work. I wish I can find a matrix chat with encryption that's light
> enough to run.
I recently started using emacs as a Matrix chat client, via the
emacs-ement library (which I installed from Guix). It does not by
itself support encryption but I am using it together with pantalaimon
proxy (also installable from Guix) which allows enryption-unaware
Matrix clients to participate in encrypted chats :)
Pantalaimon can also be used with other Matrix clients like Quaternion.
The only thing I'm still missing in those "simple" clients is VOIP
support.
You might also be interested in a fix for Pantalaimon bug that prevents
files from being downloaded. I wrote a scheme snippet that produces a
patched Pantalaimon Guix package. I'm pasting it below.
;; (C) Wojtek Kosior 2023
;; Available under CC0 1.0
(use-modules (guix packages)
(guix utils)
(gnu packages matrix))
(let ((base pantalaimon))
(package
(inherit base)
(arguments
(substitute-keyword-arguments (package-arguments base)
((#:phases phases)
`(modify-phases ,phases
(add-after 'unpack 'fix-file-downloads
(lambda _
;; https://github.com/matrix-org/pantalaimon/pull/152/commits/d71770ca94981afde8c9be6aaaca951f0685b64e
(substitute* "pantalaimon/daemon.py"
(("client.download\\(server_name, media_id, file_name\\)")
"client.download(server_name=server_name, media_id=media_id, filename=file_name)"))))))))))
You can save it in, say, `pantalaimon.scm` and use like this
guix shell -f pantalaimon.scm -- pantalaimon
I use a x230 (corebooted) running qubesOS and a (as of now bricked) T500 which is librebooted (no blobs) running trisquel
Only complaints with either is batter life
but if I had my way phones and computers would be like 2-3 times thicker just for more battery lmao
Hello,
I am new here and want to buy a free Laptop.
Which Laptop is currently the best, which is also freedom respecting?
Those are the RYF-endorsed laptops: https://ryf.fsf.org/categories/laptops
Several buyers have gone through troubles buying from Technoethical. There are other vendors on that page and more generally. Here is what I believe is the current complete list of computers that run Libreboot with no blob: https://censored.libreboot.org/docs/hardware/
There are different things that make a laptop "freedom respecting". I'll try to cover the aspects that are most important to me. Those happen to be more or less the same ones the Free Software Foundation cares about.
1. Whether a laptop boots with free software.
When a computer is powered on, it gets initialized by low-level firmware which – in case of mainstream devices — is proprietary by default. Projects that provide free/libre boot firmware (Coreboot, Das U-Boot), despite themselves being freely-licensed, often need to integrate proprietary binary-only blobs to actually boot the device.
a) All modern x86 devices (those with processors from Intel, AMD and VIA) require such proprietary blobs. Due to cryptographic signing of firmware code by Intel&friends, modern x86 devices cannot be expected to become usable 100% in freedom. Latest Intel processors that can currently be booted without blobs come from about 2009. Latest AMD processors — from about 2013.
c) There exist 2 laptops — popular Lenovo G505s from 2013 and rare HP 1035dx from 2012 – with AMD quad-core processor and up to 16GB RAM that boot with deblobbed Coreboot but have other serious problems (more on that below).
b) Some of the best Intel laptops that boot without blobs are Lenovo ThinkPad models X200, X301, T400 and others and also Dell Latitude model E6400. They also run a deblobbed version of Coreboot. The most powerful processors normally supported there are Intel Core 2 Duo. Some ThinkPads might work with Core 2 Quad after hardware modification. Highest possible RAM is 8GB. The mentioned models differ in thickness, presence of touch screen, etc.
d) There exist ARM laptops that boot with free firmware. The most prominent ones I know are Samsung Chromebook Plus and Pinebook Pro. These 2 are powered by RK3399 hexa-core SoC (from RockChip) with 4GB RAM. Out of the ARM laptops that boot blobless (and keep in mind not all ARM Chromebooks do) there might also be some that use processors from other manufacturers. Currently, however, I know of no ARM processor that's more powerful than RK3399 and can be booted without blobs (if anyone knows, please tell me!). Also, some ARM laptops boot under Coreboot, some under U-Boot and some under both!
e) I don't know of any decent laptops with other processor architectures that would be usable in freedom right now. We're all looking forward to ones with RISC-V chips but they're not here yet.
2. Whether laptop's other features (aka peripherals) work with free software.
Things like WiFi, touchpad, graphics acceleration, etc. also require firmware which can be free or nonfree. There might even be devices that require proprietary blobs to boot but otherwise have more peripherals functional with free firmware. Note that I currently don't recommend those anyway.
a) WiFi chips used in most laptops require nonfree firmware. A common practice in case of old ThinkPads is to replace the original WiFi card (plugged into a mini-PCIe slot on the laptop's mainboard) with one from Atheros for which free/libre firmware exists. All ARM laptops I know do, unfortunately, have WiFi soldered onto the mainboard and thus not replaceable. A solution might be to use a USB WiFi dongle instead. Also, the Pinebook Pro has a free mini-PCIe slot. Perhaps it can be used for a WiFi card (I cannot confirm it will work, tho).
b) Laptops generally have a separate processor in a unit called called "embedded controller" (EC). It's responsible for things like power management. AFAIK, the EC of all those x86 laptops that can run deblobbed coreboot is proprietary. Some platforms running coreboot with blobs might have free EC. In case of Chromebooks, I think (not 100% sure) all of them have free EC firmware. I cannot find information about EC in Pinebook Pro so perhaps this one is an exception and doesn't have an EC? I could do with some more info from someone else here.
c) I unfortunately lack information about what discrete GPUs can be used in freedom-respecting laptops. Most of the laptops I described so far use processors with integrated GPUs supported by linux-libre. *However*, the 2 cool AMD-powered laptops from 2012/2013 currently do require blobs for video initialization.
d) HDD/SSD firmware is currently proprietary for all possible devices. It is not loaded by the OS, tho.
d) Touchpad and keyboard controllers generally run nonfree firmware. There is one ARM laptop called TERES I which I haven't mentioned yet and which (IIRC) has those free. It's really weak, tho (some Allwinner processor, only 2GB RAM IIRC). Nevertheless, such firmwares are not loaded by the OS either.
e) USB on AMD laptops mentioned here uses a blob as well. The HP one is at least documented to have USB functional at lower speeds (2.0 instead of 3.0) without the blob. Not sure about the Lenovo one.
f) There are also cameras in some laptops. I'd expect most to run without OS-loaded blobs. Some may have nonfree firmware in them.
3. The microcode.
x86 processors generally use microcode updates. Proprietary microcode is neither innocent data nor conventional software. Some say it has to be avoided, others disagree. This has unfortunately been a great source of arguments within the freesw community. The microcode updates are generally optional, tho, so they don't strongly affect the comparison. I personally wouldn't choose to use something with nonfree microcode.
Hope I helped :)
Thanks for this information!
"We're all looking forward to ones with RISC-V chips but they're not here yet."
This sounds most promising.
Is there any date when to expect a fully free Laptop on Risc-V basis?
Don't get too excited. RISC-V is nothing more than an instruction set (I feel like I'm reminding people that Linux is only a kernel.) x86 has a specific instruction set too, as does the MOS 6502 processor, Motorola 68000, OpenRISC, PDP-11, SPARC, POWER, etc. The instruction set is only one aspect of the design of a complete, working CPU. There are plenty of opportunities for freedom problems to be introduced as a specific CPU that understands those instructions is realized. Nothing in the RISC-V instruction set would prohibit a microcoded processor, for example, with nonfree microcode updates - Such a thing would be just as capable of understanding the RISC-V instructions as anything else. Then developing a complete working computer that uses that specific CPU provides even more opportunities for freedom problems to be introduced, like having a memory controller that needs a blob to initialize the memory on boot, or blobs anywhere else. What instructions the computer understands - and what freedoms the users have - are different questions. RISC-V is not a panacea to our problems.
>"Currently, however, I know of no ARM processor that's more powerful than RK3399 and can be booted without blobs"
I think I've seen pictures of someone creating a cluster of about 8 to 12 of these. That would give you a lot of processing power and lots more memory, it would seem to me. It would probably be as powerful as any modern laptop, if not more. At least that's what I'm thinking.
In terms of pure computational power, it would be. It would, however, be a "distributed" computing system. Each node would need to be running its own operating system. Only certain applications (e.g. those running on the Erlang VM) would be able to harness this power.
Btw, I forgot to mention — out of the mainstream devices that are possible to liberate (x86 ones and also ARM Chromebooks), only some allow the libre firmware (U-Boot or Coreboot) to be installed from software. Others require it to be flashed externally, with the help of a clip connected to a chip on the mainboard of the disassembled laptop. Some devices even require some soldering work around the chip.
Interestingly, many Chromebooks can be flashed from software once a screw (so-called "write-protect screw") on the mainboard is removed. However, these Chromebooks shall still try to force you to first connect them to the internet and accept Google's EULA :c
Fortunately, it only needs to be done once — subsequent firmware updates can be performed from software on all devices
Is this maybe something to be considered:
https://shop.mntre.com/products/mnt-reform-ls1028a-module-preorder
I am also looking for a fully free laptop, including hardware, to make repair easier.
If you're wondering whether this device can work with 100% free software, the page you linked seems to have the answer:
It says:
> Ability to boot the system without any binary blobs (see next section for caveat).
And later
> eDP display requires a firmware blob. This can be worked around with a mPCIe/PCIe display adapter, but this takes up a PCIe slot.
That's interesting. If it is really possible to work around the display blob, it means the device ought to have been included in my lengthy post about laptops.
If I understand correctly, putting a display adapter in a mini-PCIe slot makes the laptop not WiFi-enabled (because the mPCIe slot would normally be occupied by a WiFi card; correct me if I'm wrong here)? Still, it's not a big problem — our community has been using USB WiFi dongles for a long time.
So it looks like it is an interesting option, thank you.
I am a translator!
I had noticed that too.
However:
- in https://mntre.com/modularity.html#table, I see "eDP has closed source firmware (required only in laptop)."
- https://mntre.com/media/reform_md/2022-07-25-ls1028a-status-update.html says "The eDP (embedded DisplayPort) controller still needs binary firmware, but it is possible to construct a blob-free computer with respectable performance from the module using a simple 2D graphics chip or FPGA for the display output instead. This can be attractive for people seeking a computer that passes FSF RYF certification. Note that we used the integrated eDP controller in our MNT Reform tests."
So my impression is that the computer is delivered with the blob for eDP and, if you order it and want to avoid the blob, you have do install the "simple 2D graphics chip" on your own.
However, I could have misunderstood, I just asked on fediverse about it. I suspect one issue might be that the LS1028A is rather expensive for its capabilities, adding a chip for display would increase the cost, making this work well would take time while maybe almost no one would buy it.
EDIT: Answer at https://mastodon.social/@mntmn/110820732466107636
Yes, I am not sure, maybe it is complicated to use it as a laptop, maybe it needs an external display to be fully free. In the answer they say "firmware in a flash chip", but is it free firmware?
I am a translator!
> In the answer they say "firmware in a flash chip", but is it free firmware?
I think he clearly means it is not free firmware. There is a further answer https://mastodon.social/@mntmn/110821133037253546 that it can be used not as a laptop without any non-free firmware, which is interesting news.
In the latop option, I am trying to think how bad this "firmware in a flash chip" is. It seems to me that it could pass the RYF-certification criteria (the so-called "secondary processor exception") but another question is: is it harmless to not update that firmware and pretend this chip is a circuit? The non-free firmware is run by some adaptor chip for the internal display (it isn't used for external display) then perhaps it can't do anything malicious besides not making the internal display work as one wishes. However, judging that is far beyond my competence level.
If that would be the case, treating it like a circuit could be a rather minor problem. It looks even less harmful than non-free EC firmware of X200, not to mention the non-free firmware of the storage of any computer (there is no storage with free firmware currently). Of course, I am interested in hearing other views.
"it can be used not as a laptop without any non-free firmware, which is interesting news."
Yes, this is very good. I was thinking about laptop because of convenience, but if it can be used fully free as a workstation it is already a breakthrough. I have looked at Talos II prices, so if this Reform system can be fully serviced and repaired it could help making fully free hardware affordable and sustainable in the long run.
> I have looked at Talos II prices, so if this Reform system can be fully serviced and repaired it could help making fully free hardware affordable and sustainable in the long run.
The KGPE-D16[1] might be a better option for a non-laptop device that boots with libre software :)
Yes, I did not mention it because the original question was about laptops, which is what the Reform is supposed to be, even though we drifted into the non-laptop possibility while trying to eliminate any remaining non-free firmware...
It is good anyway to see more options, even work in progress, appearing. The current options that are not in production any more are going to disappear sooner or later, and D16 is no exception. So it all depends on which horizon we are looking at, I suppose.
So yes, for the time being it is there, next to the Talos II:
https://ryf.fsf.org/categories/mainboards
> The current options that are not in production any more are going to disappear sooner or later
True. Given this particular SoC in MNT Reform is by itself capable of booting without blobs, I wonder if there exist other, non-laptop devices utilizing it. Some SBCs maybe? If so, perhaps they could serve as a better basis for a modest, non-laptop PC?
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