Open Distribution, Closed Development
I am a member!
Hi all,
I really welcome the ideas behind trisquel, but I cannot see that these are adopted to the development process.
In 5.5 release cycle, I have created several Bug Reports. Afair, none of them has even been assigned, nor solved. Now I wanted to create a Bugreport for the development of version 6.0 mini, and noticed that the latest version listed in the Bug Tracker is 4.0.
I have also monitored the list for a while now, and see less till no developer interaction.
A free and open project should work and communicate in the same matter.
If there is a good reason for that it's so intransparent and secret, please communicate it, so we can work on a solution, together.
If it's just a lack of time, the main developer has, maybe we could support him with our help.
Greets
Marcu
I agree with your main points.
One small thing. You can report bugs for Trisquel 6.0 mini. This bug is one such example. That is possible.
I also work on the bug tracker as a volunteer. There are multiple problems. Part of the problem is we have a too many bugs and not enough help. Some bugs are in other languages. Some bugs are not described very well. Many bugs could be reported upstream because they impact Ubuntu/Debian as well. If they were to fix it we would benefit as well. Another issue is we do have some critical freedom related bugs. These take priority in terms of trying to get them fixed.
Again I am just a volunteer but these are some of my perceived problems. If you are interested in working on this issue please check out this page about trying to get these issues fixed.
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Le 12-12-08 12:04 PM, name at domain a écrit :
> I agree with your main points.
>
> One small thing. You can report bugs for Trisquel 6.0 mini.
[https://trisquel.info/en/issues/7110 This bug is one such example].
That is possible.
>
> I also work on the bug tracker as a volunteer. There are multiple
problems. Part of the problem is we have a too many bugs and not enough
help. Some bugs are in other languages. Some bugs are not described very
well. Many bugs could be reported upstream because they impact
Ubuntu/Debian as well. If they were to fix it we would benefit as well.
Another issue is we do have some [https://trisquel.info/en/issues/5311
critical freedom related bugs]. These take priority in terms of trying
to get them fixed.
I don't report bugs in Trisquel anymore, I've ended up reporting in
Debian/Ubuntu only when not related to "critical freedom bug".
Perhaps that should be mentioned on appropriate bugs ie "this is low
priority, consider filing upstream" etc. and point to the wiki
documenting this?
>
> Again I am just a volunteer but these are some of my perceived
problems. If you are interested in working on this issue please check
out
[https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/proposed-policies-procedures-solutions
this page about trying to get these issues fixed.]
That's helpful and should publicized here once in a while..
Thank you.
Fabian Rodriguez
http://trisquel.magicfab.ca
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I am a member!
It seems to be possible to create bug reports against 6.0 mini now, and by checking the latest build, I have noticed that the bug I have reported is also somewhat fixed, but I never got any feedback from a developer. From what I have read in other posts, Ruben, the main developer is not even reading this list on a regular basis.
I thing the proposal is a very good starting point. trisquel needs a clear structure. Right now it seems to be some kind of 'one-man-show'.
It would be great if we could set up something like a 'Get started to volunteer' page, which should point out the different areas of the distribution where help is needed.
I am a member!
We actually have. We need to talk to Rubén about the proposals and solve known problems and any unknowns:
https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/proposed-policies-procedures-solutions
We need someone with the time, initiative, and drive to pursue it though. I started that page and we have a lot of people who want to participate although nobody with the time to manage it.
I think the real issue though is the project needs more money. I think Rubén would be fine at managing the project if he didn't have other responsibilities. What we need is some one with some new ideas for ways to generate income for the project. Then Rubén could work full time on Trisquel. I know he wants to... but obviously food and rent are a prioirty.
Right now there are a few thins that generate income for the project:
The gift store:
https://trisquel.info/en/store
Buying hardware from ThinkPenguin (25% of profits go to Trisquel):
Becoming a Trisquel associate member:
http://trisquel.info/en/member
And making a one time donation:
The real issue is that there is only one developer and he wants to keep it that way no matter what. He thinks the solution is to throw more money his way, but realistically the project needs to have more people involved technically and not just financially.
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Le 12-12-08 10:34 PM, name at domain a écrit :
> The real issue is that there is only one developer and he wants to keep it that way no matter what. He
thinks the solution is to throw more money his way, but realistically
the project needs to have more people involved technically and not just
financially.
Realistically money is needed.
My question since day one is "where is the money going".
There are no reports that I know of, or foundation, or organizational
structure to provide the expected transparency and communciate this to
gather more support, etc.. I'd love to be proven wrong, but if any
further efforts are needed in terms of organization, it would be in the
legal/financial/funding aspects.
Cheers,
F.
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I am a member!
There isn't enough money going into the project to put together a detailed map of where the money is going. Nor paying for enough of Rubén's time to coordinate organizing it. We are not talking ANY significant amount of money here. If you want a map of where it is going I'll give you one. It's going into Rubén's pocket. Until or unless enough people contribute there is no reason we should expect anything more.
I am a member!
No. That isn't what he thinks. That is what I think though. You act as if it is going to waste when it isn't. It is paying for expenses that enable him to work on Trisquel. The more popular Trisquel becomes the more taxing it is for him.
He is clearly volunteering more time than he is being paid for (if you can even say he is being paid for anything at all). Any amount of money should be considered a token gesture by those contributing.
The more popular Trisquel becomes the more of Rubén's time it takes up. He was at a number of conferences this summer in Europe and the United States. That ran thousands of US dollars. There are servers, Internet, hardware, and other expenses too. I don't know who paid what. I'm guessing at least some of that was paid for although I don't know that for a fact. It very well may not have been.
It is amazes me anybody can criticize when most have contributed little to nothing.
Trisquel GNU/Linux is just one distro taking advantage of other people work.
There is many ways to contribute to Free Software movement:
- use free software
- help people to use free software
- develop free software
- talk about free software
To accuse people not contributing if they don't fund Trisquel is very insulting. On the other hand, if I were able to fund financially something I would fund TripleA, Rawtherapee, GNOME, and Gimp to start with. Those are the most important projects for me.
Trisquel is attacking Free Speech in the name of Guidelines for Free Software Distributions + I would possibly only fund disto being officially part of GNU.
"Trisquel is attacking Free Speech" -> what?!
It is an attack against free speech because the definition of free software is different between Debian and GNU.
Trisquel is effectively censoring Debian's definition of Free Software by excluding VRMS. If a government want to censor a newspaper, they read it in advance and tell what articles or words must be excluded.
There are reasons why VRMS reports GNU FDL docs as non-free.
http://people.debian.org/~srivasta/Position_Statement.xhtml#problems
However, there is no reason to exclude VRMS just because definitions of Free Software are different between FSF and Debian.
* * *
It seems people have hard time in understanding what censorship means. Lets look how Wikipedia defines it.
Censorship is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient as determined by a government, media outlet, or other [b]controlling body[/b]. It can be done by governments and private organizations or by individuals who engage in self-censorship. It occurs in a variety of different contexts including speech, books, music, films and other arts, the press, radio, television, and the Internet for a variety of reasons including national security, to control obscenity, child pornography, and hate speech, to protect children, to promote or [b]restrict political or religious views[/b], to prevent slander and libel, and to protect intellectual property.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship
Note that I was semi-active in Debian Devel List at those times when GNU FDL license was voted to be non-free license. I was very much against it, and stopped using Debian because of the result of the vote - and stopped trying to become a Debian dev too.
However, I still don't like that views of Debian about Free Software and licenses are censored.
The definition of censorship does not apply here. Not at all. Trisquel does not prevent users from installing vrms (taking it from Ubuntu's repositories for instance). They can download download and install Debian too. This is fundamentally different from a government censoring the press: the readers have no easy way to access the censored information. A good analogy of what you are doing would be a left-wing (resp. right-wing) newspaper accusing a right-wing (resp. left-wing) newspaper of censorship because they chose not to publish their articles. That obviously looks wrong.
Trisquel GNU/Linux is just one distro taking advantage of other people work.
... I see, and you are not taking advantage of other people work? Are you using a computer?
To accuse people not contributing if they don't fund Trisquel is very insulting.
I believe Chris meant to speak about not contributing specifically to Trisquel, a 100% FaiF GNU/Linux distro, and not about not contributing anything to anyone. Also, he did that in response to someone who is known in this community for complaining and criticizing without trying to move a stick to help things out.
Trisquel is attacking Free Speech in the name of Guidelines for Free Software Distributions [...]
I didn't see any attack on Free Speech. Could you point that to me?
[...] I would possibly only fund disto being officially part of GNU.
Well, perhaps you didn't see this: https://gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html
Trisquel GNU/Linux is just one distro taking advantage of other people work.
--
... I see, and you are not taking advantage of other people work? Are you using a computer?
----------
Of course I am. I did not accuse anyone of anything. Just mentioned a fact. If you did not get the point since you wanted to selectively quote me, I can tell it again: I would rather fund GNOME, TripleA, Rawtherapee, and Gimp than Trisquel GNU/Linux.
The reason for that is that they need funding too, and they are preferred software for me I don't want to replace, even if I can. Trisquel, hmm, that I want to /replace/.
And all those projects I would like to fund are taking advantage of other people's work, which is a very good thing.
-----
Well, perhaps you didn't see this: https://gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html
--------
Do you think they are part of Project GNU because of that?
Let's quote you again.
- I did not accuse anyone of anything. Just mentioned a fact.
Indeed, you did accuse someone of something:
- 1. Trisquel GNU/Linux is just one distro taking advantage of other people work.
On the frame of #2, you seem to be accusing Trisquel of "leeching" people, besides detracting the hard work of Rubén and other people involved in the project, which is a disrespect.
- 2. Trisquel is attacking Free Speech in the name of Guidelines for Free Software Distributions + I would possibly only fund disto being officially part of GNU.
I didn't get the meaning of the "+". It appears you are just throwing things together irresponsibly, irrationally, trying to attack someone, perhaps because of that "insult" you mistook in the first place (I cross my fingers for that instead of a tentative of sabotage to this community -- which I should mention in cases other than yours).
You know, there's something called "articulated language" which serves to the purpose of correctly communicating intentions, attributing responsibilities etc.
It seems you do not want to answer for your acts. That is an accusation, not an enunciation of a pretense "fact"; you are trying to establish your subjectivity as a cogency, an obligation to others. That's called "authoritarianism". You are the one inclined to censorship, not Trisquel, and not FSF, which reputation you indirectly attack by this.
Besides, you probably wasn't educated to the values of the Western Civilization (or anything like that). To accuse someone of a crime (here, an attack of Free Speech) without proof of it is called "calumny", which is a crime by itself. A "proof" is both the collection of sufficient indices of some act and the logical demonstration of why they would make that act to fit in the law's definition of the alleged crime.
- If you did not get the point since you wanted to selectively quote me [...]
Of course it was selectively. It would be even if I quoted you entirely. The difference would be the criteria by which I did it. I got the point and selected the main points of it. That means not quoting what was not necessary to quote.
- [...] I can tell it again: I would rather fund GNOME, TripleA, Rawtherapee, and Gimp than Trisquel GNU/Linux.
You say that just before accusing Trisquel of attacking Free Speech. Does it takes too much to understand you are spelling your will as a prelude to that accusation?
- The reason for that is that they need funding too, and they are preferred software for me I don't want to replace, even if I can. Trisquel, hmm, that I want to /replace/.
Hmm, perhaps you should be more respectful and less cheeky.
- Do you think they are part of Project GNU because of that? ["Well, perhaps you didn't see this:" link to 100% FaiF GNU/Linux distros, in response to that thing after the "+"]
No, but you are calling me stupid. A GNU/Linux distro is named that way because that's not all GNU; now, it can be called a GNU distro because Linux-libre became a GNU project. I suggested the link to you not as a logical "entimema", but trying to get you to stop detracting Trisquel and its community. It appears you didn't have that sensibility, though.
Or perhaps you are just ashamed and don't want to recognize it -- thus your statements:
- However, I still don't like that views of Debian about Free Software and licenses are censored. [it was an outdated draft!!]
But it doesn't matter if you like them or not. You used them as an argument.
I have no more time to spend with this right now.
You know, there is this thing called big picture. There is Free Software movement. That's why "Trisquel GNU/Linux is just one distro taking advantage of other people work."
This is why there are so many ways to contribute. Even saying in your Facebook that you use this and that Free Software is contributing to the Free Software movement.
I am a member!
I was a bit over the top maybe. Criticism isn't the real problem.
Attacking Rubén and those who are doing something when your doing nothing is not the way to make friends. That is what I'm criticizing. Don't go attacking Rubén for not doing more when you aren't willing to do anything yourself. Not agreeing with everything a project does isn't an excuse take advantage of others.
I'm not by any means attacking those who have nothing to contribute. I don't think there are many people here who have nothing to contribute.
I see with envy how many hackers work in parabola whereas just one makes trisquel.
And parabola doesn't accept donations. How is parabola financed? Could trisquel adopt the same system?
Or maybe parabola is more attractive to developers than trisquel. If so, how could trisquel attrack hackers attention?
@Chris
You're right, and it's amazing how good trisquel is in spite of the lack of developers. Rubén makes a great job here.
From your words I guess the developement curried out in parabola with about 15 hackers is similar to the one in trisquel, made by Rubén.
Then, if we could attrack some volunteers to help Rubén trisquel would improve considerably.
I am a member!
The problem is you have to organize contributors. I started a page on it:
https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/proposed-policies-procedures-solutions
And there is/was an ongoing discussion. We need some one to lead. I think Rubén would be fine. I'm trying to get ThinkPenguin to a point where we can hire or otherwise contribute more significantly to projects like this. Our recent announcement didn't pan out as well as I had hoped. Although it isn't the end of the world. Things are still moving forward!
If I worked efficiently and the only thing I had to do was get Trisquel funded (that is basically work on public relations) to the tune of about $60,000 USD / yr it could probably be done in about a month worth of my time (based on real math). The actual time it would take would be longer due to the involvement of other people and the fact I don't have the time to do it exclusively. Six months in the real world maybe? Probably longer due to other projects getting in the way though too.
So Parabola's model is the future? The problem with many open source projects is the one person handling everything approach. Most of them fail unless they get more finances and contributors from a big entity like Google or Red Hat.
I am a member!
We have a ton of people on GNU/Linux, a few developers, and no people with business/marketing/public relation skills. We need at least a few of these people for each area. I'm trying to push the business end of things although I'm not exactly experienced in the art. Then again look at the job Mark Shuttleworth appears to be doing and every other. I don't think I'm doing a terrible job comparatively. Mark has significantly more experience than I do in the business world.
Yet in my humble opinion, Parabola (aka Arch Linux) has an easier system to create and maintain packages (PKGBUILD) than Trisquel (aka Ubuntu, aka Debian). This is a very important point to add. Another one is the fact that they don't have an half of the work that Ruben's does since they don't need to create different version (netinstall, mini, standard etc...) and they don't need to maintain and correct bugs (well very rarely), they only need to take the PKGBUILD of the Arch Linux packages, remove any non-free part and put them on the server, it is quite an easy task (I've already done myself quite a few packages, even knowing that only 2 are published right now on the AUR, and it took me a few hours not a few days like on debian and all his ways to create a package).
Then it would be easier to fork Parabola making its installation more user friendly and providing a default gui desktop, right?
Hmm, I don't think a fork would be needed for that.
One could just begin to work on more simple installation disk of Parabola for new users. But who would use it anyway? A marginal of a marginal. Maybe worth doing.
(For me the complexity to install Parabola GNU/Linux has never been an issue, though.)
For me it is CUPS... I just had enough of cups not stopping working at every update (and all the bugs of the new Gnome 3.6). So I decided to start using Trisquel (even knowing that there is a lot of missing features, applications etc...).
And thanks to the AUR model and the Trusted Users model, Parabola will never be out of users/developers.
For me it is CUPS... I just had enough of cups not stopping working at every update (and all the bugs of the new Gnome 3.6). So I decided to start using Trisquel (even knowing that there is a lot of missing features, applications etc...).
And thanks to the AUR model and the Trusted Users model, Parabola will never be out of users/developers.
Hmm, that reminds me how I could not make a print server in Parabola GNU/Linux with cups. It was not a major issue for me though, would had just been convenient.
Also Cups issues reminds me of my time with Gentoo. Interesting to hear that Cups still keeps buggering in rolling releases.
What I found funny is that Chakra (a KDE derivative of Arch Linux) don't have this problem and it is also a rolling distribution (sometimes it is even more updated than Arch Linux itself).
I searched on the packages but I see no difference at all... So I just forgot about that and "run" into Trisquel.
Isn't Parabola, based on Arch, a rolling release? While attractive to many developers, not always ideal for ensuring stability due to the bleeding edge nature. Linux Mint Debian Edition is based on the testing repositories of Debian and even though testing isn't as new as unstable, the Mint team had to move to an "update pack" system to add some stability and make sure the distro wasn't breaking on standard updates.
Smaller distros base themselves off of Ubuntu because they tame Debian and do the majority of the work in keeping a stable ecosystem. Trisquel benefits from this even if they have to remove packages once in a while. Oh and being compatible with Ubuntu PPAs is a BIG bonus.
Parabola is derived from Arch, which has a community much more technically capable than Ubuntu's, which is on what Trisquel is based.
P. S. AFAIK, Rubén is the sole main developer, but not the only developer. There are more people involved with the project.
P. P. S. I just read aliasbody's answer; he has better points than I.
My feeling as of today about this topic:
- I don't mind if the software that is included is not the latest and greatest, as long as security patches are applied
- But we may have an issue here with abrowser, given Firefox's highly idiosyncratic rapid release cycle, where if I understand correctly, new functionalities and security patches are bundled together (is that correct?). Maybe abrowser should be based of Firefox's ESR edition (think of it as a LTS), where the only updates are security updates?
- Is it really worth/feasible trying to follow Ubuntu's rhythm with a new version every six months? I have already suggested in this forum that maybe a Trisquel version based on Ubuntu LTS would be enough, with some trisquel-managed repositories to update some high-profile software (such as abrowser? linux kernel? etc...) in the meantime?
- I believe most of the frustration that is being expressed here stems from two things: 1. Lack of visibility and communication 2. People offering to help and being all but ignored. Concerning the first point, this is not a criticism of Ruben's work, I love Trisquel and I think that he does a terrific job. He doesn't owe anything to anyone and I'm grateful for what he does, but wouldn't it be cool if he could just write some quick notes from time to time in a blog just to let us know roughly what's going on? For instance, it looks like the release of Toutatis is imminent, but you'd be hard pressed to know by just looking at the website's main page. As for the second point, it is something that bothers me, but let's see what happens with the wiki page where many, many people have volunteered to help.
Looking forward to Toutatis :)...
I agree you with but I still have many concerns about Trisquel being based on Ubuntu. Let me explain
- I'm also don't mind to not have the latest and greatest, but I except the application to work and to be secure (receiving security patches then). And as many of you may have already seen, a bunch of application available in the repositories simply don't work. I can give those 2 examples :
-- Virtualbox is available in 5.5 but the Kernel module can't be installed (why not removing it from the repositories ?). It isn't available in 6.0 tho. (There is an application with an almost similar problem that is Ekiga... it is available but it doesn't install because of a non-free missing package).
-- Pencil is available on both 5.5 and 6.0, but it doesn't save on neither the two (they are the same version). So you can create an animation but it won't save.
Ubuntu has a lots of problems, and I think that Ruben should continue with a Ubuntu base but should add more of his sauce. What I mean by that is, no adding something just because the same version of Ubuntu added it (like for example the 6.0 that is based on Ubuntu 12.04 which added new features for Compiz because of Unity... But the snap window is still buggy and this still isn't corrected on 12.10 so why 6.0 adds this by default ?)
Abrowser (aka Firefox) is also another problem. Why is Abrowser different from Firefox ? Why there a difference on the design ? Why can I put the refresh button between the url bar and the search bar in order for him to be integrated with the url bar like in Firefox and IceWeasel ? Why many of the features available on Firefox (that are free software) are not enabled by default on Abrowser when they are on IceWeasel and Firefox (like WebGL) ?
But I must agree with you. Trisquel has only 2 solutions, or it will always try to create a Free Version of Ubuntu and by doing this he enters in a race of time and resources. Or he just take all the knowledge and time (that is already not enough) and just take what we have (an almost finished and stable 6.0 release) and just do something new, that will only go take the real necessary from Ubuntu and Debian when needed.
There is also the bar problem. In Trisquel 6.0 the bar isn't transparent (like in 5.5) because of the applets on it that won't fallow the rest of the design (the same happens in Ubuntu).
And the sound problems on 5.5 for many devices.
But what can be done ? I have already reported the issue, we have already a little group of people reading the bugreports and trying to find a solution (big thanks for them) but I really don't know what can be done more. Sending emails ? With what ? Donation ? I've already donated.. not much but still it is better than nothing in my opinion.
And even with all this, I still use Trisquel Gnu/Linux as my main distribution everyday... My mother uses it... The POS I am creating for my Mother's Bar will be using it. And, I hope, my business will also use it. And why ? Because it is simply (today at least) the best true image of a Free and Intuitive distribution that we can give to the world. And that is awesome :D
I am a member!
For most people all they can do is donate. Which is one of the reasons I encourage it. Unfortunately not everyone is in a position to make a significant donation. However any amount is still appreciated.
I'm sure you read the other thread. There may be a meeting on IRC. I'm going to re-read that and contact those who are on the volunteer list about it.
You do bring up an interesting point about future releases being based on LTS only and then backporting necessary packages and fixes in the "toutatis-backports" repostory. The repository exists, so why not use it?? If 6.0 does not come out soon, the release is 8-9 months after the Ubuntu release it is based off of and only further pushes aside any chances of 6.5 and 7.0 staying on schedule.
Like many of you said, this is a one man team who has his priorities set right now on his full time job and not Trisquel. Being a member and sending more money this way has no guarantee if this will change or any proof that he will use it towards this project. He rarely communicates with the community and does not often listen to suggestions.
If this release pushes into 2013, then I believe there should be some soul searching for a lot of Trisquel users to switch to another distro like Parabola or go back to Ubuntu and purge out the non-free packages themselves.
Le 2012-12-10 12:07, name at domain a écrit :
> You do bring up an interesting point about future releases being
> based on LTS only and then backporting necessary packages and fixes
> in the "toutatis-backports" repostory. The repository exists, so why
> not use it??
Exactly. Like an install of Debian Squeeze with the Squeeze-backports
repo enabled.
> Like many of you said, this is a one man team who has his priorities
> set right now on his full time job and not Trisquel. Being a member
> and sending more money this way has no guarantee if this will change
> or any proof that he will use it towards this project. He rarely
> communicates with the community and does not often listen to
> suggestions.
As I don't know Ruben I'm just speculating, but bear in mind that the
economic situation of Spain (and most of Europe) is not good at all.
The unemployment rate among the young in Spain is 50%! You can't blame
Trisquel's main dev from trying to make a living with his company and
not giving full priority to the Trisquel project, which, as Chris
repeatedly reminds us, doesn't provide him with enough money to drop his
day job.
> If this release pushes into 2013, then I believe there should be some
> soul searching for a lot of Trisquel users to switch to another
> distro like Parabola or go back to Ubuntu and purge out the non-free
> packages themselves.
Why so dramatic? Trisquel is still the best 100% free distro out there
and Brigantia works perfectly fine; it's not as if we were stuck with an
incredibly out-of-date current version. Granted, Toutatis is taking a
lot of time to be released, but it will be there soon (RC3 is currently
available). I hope that, when releasing Toutatis, Ruben will
communicate his plans for future releases so that we don't spend 2013
wondering what's going on :).
I am a member!
If you look at past releases Rubén has been pretty consistent. He has been releasing in March / April and September for the last couple years now. With the 5.5 release though there were some major changes in Ubuntu. Gnome 2 was dropped from 11.10 and Trisquel is based on that. It required more work to get it out. This has put things a bit behind I think. Some distributions skipped a release entirely. If you add 6 months to the above date you get an October/December release period. December might be a bit late... but still not that bad.
If you look at this roadmap you can see it is right around the corner too:
http://trisquel.info/en/wiki/roadmap
This is the third release candidate already. If it doesn't come out soon I'll be absolutely shocked.
Despite the great work that Ruben does, Trisquel shares similar issues as other "One-may-show" projects.
dynebolic currently has seen no progress since Jaromil, the maintainer, has found no time for updating the distro.
If a project (be it free software or not) is driven / maintained by a single person, then this person is a classical SPOF (= single point of failure). Distributing work and knowledge is essential for the survival of any project. If the main responsible person gets sick, gets hit by a bus or simply does not like to work on the project anymore, then the project is essentially
dead. You can see dead projects all around in the web.
While it is true that Trisquel lacks monetary ressources to pay Ruben, it also lacks a change in structure.
Additional to this I have the feeling that the build / development process of Trisquel is not very transparent.
This leads me to another issue that the Wiki of Trisquel in its current structure and the way it works is really a mess. Personally I do not feel like writing anything in this wiki anymore.
Head over to the archwiki to get a feeling how a well structured wiki can look like:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php
Just my two cents,
Holger
I am a member!
While this is true the issue isn't that one person maintains it. The issue is there are not financial resources going into it. With financial resources you can start documenting the process, distributing responsibilities, etc. Every project still needs a good leader. And your going to find few people have that time if there are no resources to pay that person.
Trisquel has done very well despite this. Now if you want to move it to the next step contribute!
Chris,
I completely respect the work that you're doing and the way that you're interacting in this community. However I, like others, feel that the problem will not be solved simply by the current folks involved contributing more money.
The problem I'm referring to is a perception of sustainability problem. Having one central developer who controls everything about the project, including the website, is not sustainable. So, how can we make Trisquel be perceived to be sustainable, and therefore worth donating to?
One way is to be as transparent and accountable about the development process as is possible.
"There are no reports that I know of, or foundation, or organizational structure to provide the expected transparency and communciate this to gather more support, etc.."
If those currently controlling development (i.e. Rubén) want other people to get involved and help to control development, then they *must* provide as much information as is possible (i.e. the info MagicFab is asking for). Many here feel that since Rubén doesn't appear to be providing the kind of development information they need or the kind of organizational support they'd like, that Rubén would prefer to maintain control of the project himself with little to no outside help. They feel that he wants the community to pay him to do the work, even though there may be some really great people interested in donating their time and energy.
My point is, Chris, you seem to go back to the "lack of funding" as the main problem or even the idea that "we need some one to lead." But, to me and others, that's not the problem. It's the lack of transparency and accountability in the current development process that's holding things up.
I believe that once the organizational side of things surrounding current development practices is resolved, enabling the current development process to fully utilize the long list of volunteers listed here, as oysterboy notes, the financial side of things will start to improve.
At that time, it will make sense for people in my situation to consider donating so that someone can manage the project. Until then, I'm hesitant to give money because it's, as you say, only going into Rubén's pocket.
MagicFab, do you have any links to other projects that share the kind of information you think will be helpful for Trisquel to share? Does anyone else? Maybe all we need to do is create a wiki page with this information and ask Rubén to fill in the blanks? Or, along with creating a wiki page, we need to come up with questions that we'd like Rubén to answer so that the knowledge needed can be made public?
For example, let's say we want an accounting report of donations made over the past 3 months and that we'd like this report made public every 3 months thereafter. The names of those donating can be removed and kept confidential if needed, but the financial amounts along with the total amount of money available for Trisquel development could be made public.
Anyone else see where I'm going with this?
There are other non-profits who not only list contributors on their pages, but also their tax filing reports which shows exactly how much money came in and descriptions of how much of that is spent. The FSF posts their reports online and follows the guidelines of a 501(c)3 organization.
Looking at the Apache Foundation, they are a good reference of a software non-profit that is heavily organized: http://www.apache.org/foundation/ with their records posted online: http://www.apache.org/foundation/records/
With Trisquel being a European non-profit, are the guidelines similar as they were in the United States? I ask becauce of my familiarity with researching US based ones.
I am a member!
As far as where the money is going it is very clear:
“We will spend the money in our development and web servers. It is also our goal to receive enough funds to sustain the main development team, so in the future they will be able to work full time on the project as they main or only job.”
As far as how much he is pulling in it is relatively clear:
It's about: $16,000 USD / year between memberships and donations.
What more is there to know?
There is not enough to pay a lead developer. Until you solve that problem Trisquel will always be a one man show. There are no other volunteers that have shown themselves capable and willing (first to be true; the later may not to my knowledge). The only person that I know *is* willing to do something should things go south is myself and I have another job too. Right now I'd be in the same position as Rubén.
If the contributions exceed $50,000 USD then there is some argument as to where the money is going.
There is somewhat of a roadmap that volunteers have been editing:
http://trisquel.info/en/wiki/roadmap
There is also documentation on building Trisquel:
http://trisquel.info/en/wiki/how-trisquel-made
There is also a build script:
http://bzr.trisquel.info/makeiso/trunk/annotate/head%3A/makeiso.sh
You can also download the sources for various components like abrowser:
http://packages.trisquel.info/brigantia/abrowser
Now. What are we missing should Rubén disappear? The domain? There is enough documentation for Trisquel to be built from scratch by someone else. What we don't have is the funds to make sure someone can do it (make it worth there time). Rubén has graciously given his time to the project. And we can't even support him. What we can do is complain about the lack of documentation and willingness to let others "in".
Yet- he has posted instructions on how to reach him:
http://trisquel.info/en/faq#n1867
And I can confirm he does respond (to the extent that any other project leader does and then some). He has fixed numerous free software related bugs and the only thing he hasn't responded to are issues that nobody has contacted him about (as far as I'm aware).
To say all he cares about is money is non-sense. Your confusing what I think is the real issue (to fix organizational problems). Rubén has made no push to increase the funds available to him. This has solely been the cause of other people here (one being myself).
There are reasonable concerns regarding the structure. However these are minor in comparison to the financial issue. If you solve the financial issue then Rubén can focus on things like this (making sure the domain doesn't get gobbled up).
2nd. If organization is so important and people actually feel it matters more then take the lead. We started something and right now it is in limbo:
http://trisquel.info/en/wiki/proposed-policies-procedures-solutions
Add to that page your concerns. Write up an email that we can send to Rubén. If there is actually going to be a contributor (non-financial) that is of significance to this project from that long list of volunteers then someone should be able to find the time to do this.
If there is any question as to Rubén's willingness then post the email (or better send me the email) and I'll forward it. I'll make sure we get some kind of a response.
Re-executing the two commands I wrote for this thread, one can find out that there now are 67 "associate members" (there only were 52 back then, September 21st). The *total* amount of one-time donations (over *two* years) is:
PLN 70
BRL 25
£ 115
CAD 135
SEK 290
MXN 1120
AUD 60
$ 5045.42
€ 1565.79
That is about 20% more than on September 21st.
All that is still *very* insufficient to pay a full-time developer.
To add to the links that Chris sent regarding involvement with Trisquel:
https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/trisquel-team - It seems there are other folks involved in the Trisquel project, other than Rubén. It also seems as if it's possible for others to get listed on this page as they become more involved. I'm wondering, do these folks have regular meetings or can the Trisquel community be notified of when the meetings are? What about meeting minutes?
On the financial reporting side of things, maybe someone would like to volunteer to be the Treasurer or something, to be listed in the "Project Management" section of the link above. I would nominate Magic Banana to be the first person to do this.
https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/financial-information - Wiki page I created in order to help gather financial information. Please edit as needed.
https://trisquel.info/en/tasks - An interface to help gauge community interest in various projects. Put an idea there, if it gets funded, then the Project Management team has some funds to put the idea into action.
https://trisquel.info/en/node/add/book - Create a wiki page with your idea, plan, information, etc... This way, the community can help edit and add to the wiki page as needed. It's also helpful for folks new to Trisquel who may have similar intersts or concerns.
I'll try to address some of your questions and concerns.
* It is true that I'm not following the lists closely, I gave up on that long ago. I rely on close hackers picking up important things for me to work on, as I don't have the time to read all what happens here now that the community grew. I'll try to put more effort into answering to direct email, the irc channel, and the development list, but don't expect me to read the user-community oriented forum/lists.
* This release has been delayed, mainly because it is true that the project is still a one man show as some of you have pointed out. This is by no means my desire, though. It just happens that no many patches/package-helpers are provided by other hackers, so I still need to do most of the work. The reason why it has been delayed this time while it has always been a one-man-show is that I have a dayjob now, which is an important educational free software project for development countries, so it is hard for me to say no to it. I need to come up with a solution for this, probably trimming the project a bit (less maintained packages or image versionsm unless knowledgeable maintainers step up) and working less hours on my dayjob.
* Regarding money, we didn't publish a report on what are we doing with it because mainly it is just being saved for future use. We just spent a bit of it on usb keys, other than that we saved it and we now have a bit over 11.000 euros in the account. It is not that much and the rate it goes in is still too low to secure a hiring, but we will probably use part of it next year for travel expenses, as an example so I can go back to LibrePlanet where I plan to roll out a project revamp effort.
* What I don't agree with is with any closed development happening. All the code is being published (http://devel.trisquel.info/gitweb/) and I regularly get suggestions that go into the system. If the work sometimes looks closed is because it is not being done by a group of hackers something I'd love to change. If skilled people started hacking that perception would be different. In any case we will set some community-oriented development infrastructure soon (gitorious, most likely).
* Fixing things: the bottom line is that we need more hackers, and while volunteers appear all the time it is very hard to do something with somebody that comes up saying "I am a java programmer, how can I help?", which is the most usual kind of volunteer. I very much appreciate the interest and the offer, but I don't have the time to teach people how to fix random bugs in random programs, or how to customize packages to fit our needs, it is a skill you need to get by yourself. Which is why we very rarely get patches/helpers sent in.
One way we can start to work things out is by having a weekly development meeting on the irc, and discuss this bottom-line problems there. I suggest doing it at the #trisquel-devel channel on Tuesdays at 17:00 UTC.
I'm wondering if you can clarify what you mean by "bottom-line problems." I think the meeting will go more smoothly if everyone is clear about what we're meeting about.
Do you mean:
- Bottom-line financial problems?
- Bottom-line development problems?
- Bottom-line transparency problems?
- Other problems?
I'm not sure yet if I'll be able to attend meetings Tuesdays at 17:00 UTC, can someone take meeting minutes and/or provide a copy of the transcript?
I meant mainly development problems, which means lack-of-hands problems, something that can either be fixed by volunteers or by improving financially. Even if I love the volunteer community model I think that for a free software project to be reliable it needs to be able to sustain at least a small core of developers, otherwise it could die at any moment.
And regarding to transparency, although we don't do anything behind closed doors we can still improve in how we provide access to the community to engage. This is why I think a better code manager and a weekly devel meeting will help.