Default web browser, Abrowser, in Trisquel 8 has Amazon, Twitter and Google as suggested search engines. Issue?
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I'm on the fence here, in that I'm not a fan of Amazon or Google, but I don't know that this is a software freedom issue. I would have a problem with the Amazon search engine being built into the desktop environment Ubuntu-style, as I would consider that an endorsement, but one-click search engines seem like a reasonable feature for a web browser. Note that you are free to add and remove search engines.
Amazon's and Google's search engines can be used without any proprietary software if you don't allow their JavaScript, and there are reasons you might choose to use them. For instance, while I refuse to buy from Amazon I will use their search engine to discover books to buy from other vendors.
The fact that Google and Amazon (among other evils) create some proprietary software doesn't necessarily mean that everything associated with them must be avoided. There are ways in which free software benefits from Google. For example, enough of Android is free software that it was easier to fork it to create a mostly libre mobile OS (LineageOS) which was then forked to create an entirely libre mobile OS (Replicant) than it would have been to create Replicant from scratch. GNU Lilypond regularly participates in and benefits from Google Summer of Code. Google also does harmful things, but that isn't a reason not to take advantage of ways to benefit from them that don't compromise our freedom. They certainly don't mind taking advantage of ways to benefit from us!
Trisquel shouldn't actively promote these companies and certainly shouldn't include any of their proprietary software, but I'm not sure whether supporting their search engines is outside of Trisquel's policies.
Perhaps you should report this as an issue with the 'branding' tag just to make sure that the developer is aware, and they'll determine whether or not it should be removed.
I see, my friend. That was a really thought-through and well articulated point of view. Thanks!
Well said. +1
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Trisquel-users] Default web browser, Abrowser, in Trisquel 8 has Amazon, Twitter and Google as suggested search engines. Issue?
> Local Time: January 1, 2018 2:07 PM
> UTC Time: January 1, 2018 7:07 PM
> From: name at domain
> To: name at domain
>
> I'm on the fence here, in that I'm not a fan of Amazon or Google, but I don't
> know that this is a software freedom issue. I would have a problem with the
> Amazon search engine being built into the desktop environment Ubuntu-style,
> as I would consider that an endorsement, but one-click search engines seem
> like a reasonable feature for a web browser. Note that you are free to add
> and remove search engines.
>
> Amazon's and Google's search engines can be used without any proprietary
> software if you don't allow their JavaScript, and there are reasons you might
> choose to use them. For instance, while I refuse to buy from Amazon I will
> use their search engine to discover books to buy from other vendors.
>
> The fact that Google and Amazon (among other evils) create some proprietary
> software doesn't necessarily mean that everything associated with them must
> be avoided. There are ways in which free software benefits from Google. For
> example, enough of Android is free software that it was easier to fork it to
> create a mostly libre mobile OS (LineageOS) which was then forked to create
> an entirely libre mobile OS (Replicant) than it would have been to create
> Replicant from scratch. GNU Lilypond regularly participates in and benefits
> from Google Summer of Code. Google also does harmful things, but that isn't a
> reason not to take advantage of ways to benefit from them that don't
> compromise our freedom. They certainly don't mind taking advantage of ways to
> benefit from us!
>
> Trisquel shouldn't actively promote these companies and certainly shouldn't
> include any of their proprietary software, but I'm not sure whether
> supporting their search engines is outside of Trisquel's policies.
>
> Perhaps you should report this as an issue with the 'branding' tag just to
> make sure that the developer is aware, and they'll determine whether or not
> it should be removed.
I am a member!
Whether or not it is a freedom related issue, it is a decision that was made by Trisquel devs and that potentially exposes users to corporations whose business model is based on surveillance.
I assume Trisquel devs decided to modify as little as was necessary to create a freedom respecting program, though if I'm not mistaken Firefox defaults to using Google whereas Abrowser (and Icecat) default to Duckduckgo. If that is indeed the case, then it means the search engine functionality was indeed modified. I don't see why not go one extra step and remove all the surveillance platforms.
Iceweasel, in the Parabola repos, removes all of these surveillance platforms disguised as search engines. I'm not sure if Debian does the same. Unfortunately Iceweasel is not available in Trisquel.
In my opinion, keeping those search engines there is a tacit endorsement, and at the very least is free advertising.
Related ethical issue -- though not nearly as bad -- as systemd resolved defaulting to Google's DNS nameservers.
Mason wrote:
Google also does harmful things, but that isn't a reason not to take advantage of ways to benefit from them that don't compromise our freedom. They certainly don't mind taking advantage of ways to benefit from us!
I agree with your last sentence, which is why I would be very wary of assuming these companies would allow us to take advantage of them. More likely, they'll be looking for ways to keep taking advantage of us without our knowledge or approval. Your advise sounds a lot like playing with fire.
Mason wrote:
Perhaps you should report this as an issue with the 'branding' tag just to make sure that the developer is aware, and they'll determine whether or not it should be removed.
Good idea! At least we can find out the rationale for keeping them on the browser.
P.S. Does anyone know how to add a quote? I tried with [quote][/quote] substituting [ for <, but it did not seem to take effect.
I don't see why not go one extra step and remove all the surveillance platforms.
Indeed.
Unfortunately Iceweasel is not available in Trisquel.
Trisquel already has Abrowser and IceCat. Having a third Firefox derivative only justified by a different choice of default online search engines looks too much.
systemd resolved defaulting to Google's DNS nameservers.
The fallback DNS is commented in Trisquel 8:
$ grep FallbackDNS /etc/systemd/resolved.conf
#FallbackDNS=8.8.8.8 8.8.4.4 2001:4860:4860::8888 2001:4860:4860::8844
I am not sure it is enough (maybe it should be "FallbackDNS=", uncommented).
I would be very wary of assuming these companies would allow us to take advantage of them.
Well, I am not sure Mozilla would employ so many developers if it was not for their million-dollar deals with Google & co. (against being the default online search engine). And there is the Google Summer of Code. And Google has written quite a lot of free software, like AOSP, which is the base of LineageOS and, in turn, of Replicant. Etc. So, I agree with mason for the same arguments he listed: we should praise Google (even work with it) for the good it does and criticize them (and fight against it) for the bad it does.
Does anyone know how to add a quote?
I use the "cite" tag. Here are more available tags: https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/formatting-trisquel-forum
I am a member!
Having a third Firefox derivative only justified by a different choice of default online search engines looks too much.
Yes, I'm not necessarily suggesting a third FF derivative. I do prefer Iceweasel to either of the other two. I would be happy to trade Iceweasel for Icecat.
The example was more to illustrate that whether or not it is a software freedom issue, FS dev teams have made this particular decision.
maybe it should be "FallbackDNS=", uncommented
I would vote for that, though commented is already a step in the right direction.
So, I agree with mason for the same arguments he listed: we should praise Google (even work with it) for the good it does and criticize them (and fight against it) for the bad it does.
I can see your point and Mason's and I agree that it is not black and white. Perhaps it can even be argued that it is impossible to completely avoid these huge monopolistic corporations. I still think it is playing with fire.
Google's decisions are utilitarian and they will not hesitate to be hostile or destroy anything good they have created if they think it is to their strategic advantage. It is the nature of any entity where profit is the ultimate goal and certainly the nature of all monopolies.
For example, using XMPP while reaching critical mass and then clossing the platform off for Google chat. I'm very happy for Replicant (and LineageOS) but speculate Google may move away from the Linux kernel if/when convenient for them. A bit like sponsoring LLVM under permissive licenses to then create a proprietary plugin layer on top.
As I said though, I do see your point and acknowledge the pros and cons are open for debate.
Thanks for the tip about "cite" and the link to formatting on the forum!
I'm not necessarily suggesting a third FF derivative. I do prefer Iceweasel to either of the other two.
Iceweasel is a Firefox derivative.
I would vote for that, though commented is already a step in the right direction.
My point is that I wonder if having FallbackDNS undefined in /etc/systemd/resolved.conf really does not set any fallback DNS. It may be that Google's DNS are still used as a fallback, that FallbackDNS must be defined to nothing to really not have a fallback. Defining to nothing is enough according to https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?att=0;bug=761658;msg=216
As the link above states: "systemd-resolved is not used and enabled by default". I would add: it is a fallback, i.e., only used when no DNS server is configured (when you connect to Internet, a DHCP server administrated by your Internet provider sends you the addresses of its DNS servers). So, well, it is not a grave problem...
I am a member!
Iceweasel is a Firefox derivative.
I know, and I was not suggesting adding it to Trisquel. As I said, I was using it as an example that it does not have to be a free software issue for it to be addressed (as a response to Mason's comment).
FallbackDNS must be defined to nothing to really not have a fallback
I understand now and have not tested it. I suppose if the maintainer says so then that would be the safest bet apart from testing.
So, well, it is not a grave problem
I've followed the whole discussion on the Debian bug report since '14. It is not as grave as many other things, though I am amazed at the intransigence and tone taken by a few on the "it's not a bug, it's a feature" camp.
I am a translator!
>The fallback DNS is commented in Trisquel 8:
In Debian too it is commented. That was not the case when Stretch came out and I remember there being quite some fuss around it. Hopefully as of 9.1 they commented the line.
Probably the reason why Iceweasel is not present in Trisquel is the one mentioned by MagicBanana, but probably you can find more information about it at the end of this page: https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/abrowser-help
Regarding what you have mentioned about the search engines not being a freedom issue but not being either desirable, you can probably a similar situation in this thread: https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/gnu-linux-libre/2017-12/msg00015.html that was raised by bill-auger to GNU-linux-libre from trisquel-devel. We are still waiting for the answer by the FSF. If their answer is that it is compliant with FSDG, without a lot of modifications, probably that functionality in Abrowser also is and Icecat is available for everybody concerning about those issues.
It's clearly not a software freedom issue, it's about privacy (which is also important).
That being said I'm not a big fan of judging companies soley on their names and reputations, like
"Don't use google, it's bad! Let's switch all to XYZ"
A year later: "Since we all switched to XYZ, it became really big and now also stores our data... let's switch to ABC"
I personally think it's wise not to trust any company to the extent possible, since they might all store and sell our data.
It's better to use VPN / Tor and keep our information scattered, not centralized at the servers of one big corporation - no matter how this company is called.
Google can't be trusted and does a lot of bad things, but I don't see a problem using their search engine via VPN (and without being logged in) from a user point of view.
How is using startpage better? They also get their results from google.
googles technical monopoly on the search engine market is of course a huge issue, but it's a completely different topic.
I am a translator!
> How is using startpage better? They also get their results from google.
I am amazed you ask this, you should know better. Not supporting and rejecting the mafia is always and in any case better, mate quanty.
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