Difference between Linux-libre kernel and Debian (main) kernel?

100 respostas [Última entrada]
GNUsercn
Desconectado
Joined: 10/13/2015

Gracias, guys.

So the difference is slight: just the notification/reference.

But I (seems) did not encounter the notice from the Debian installation when my wireless card did not fit to the free firmware...

I didn't install the nonfree firmware, so it was equivalent to the linux-libre kernel..

cooloutac
Desconectado
Joined: 06/27/2015

The difference is you can't even accidentally install non free software on trisquel, from its repos or with kernel driver modules.

ADFENO
Desconectado
Joined: 12/31/2012

Well, just an addendum:

First, I'm not recommending non-free software, but I'm just telling the
facts. That said, please read on.

Not being able to install non-free modules in the kernel is actually a
bug in Linux-libre[1].

And non-free can slip through the Trisquel's official repositories[2].
Humans make mistakes. I guess (but I'm not sure) this is why the FSF
gives a GNU Bucks for those who report a software freedom issue coming
from the recognized free operating systems[3], to motivate guidelines'
watchers.

REFERENCES

[1]
http://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/blogs/lxo/2013-11-08-linux-libre-interview-by-bruce-byfield.en.html
"Is there anything that the project wants to do that it can't do now? In
general, what are the future plans for the project?"

[2]
https://trisquel.info/en/forum/my-experiences-switching-powerline-ethernet-and-getting-around-non-free-r8169-firmware#comment-72004

[3] https://www.gnu.org/help/gnu-bucks.html

cooloutac
Desconectado
Joined: 06/27/2015

I don't care if its a "bug" I consider that a security benefit and I hope they don't fix it.

And even though non free software can slip into a trisquel repo accidentally, they wouldn't do it knowingly, unlike debian.

For these reasons there is way less of a chance you would install non free software accidentally as user.

Magic Banana

I am a member!

Desconectado
Joined: 07/24/2010

"main" only contains free software as defined in the Debian Free Software Guidelines. Disagreements with FSF's definition exist but are very rare, e.g., software under the Artistic License 1.0.

That said, some programs in "main" recommend proprietary software. Iceweasel for instance uses Mozilla's extension site I believe.

SuperTramp83

I am a translator!

Desconectado
Joined: 10/31/2014

Absolutely not true. Programs in "main" don't recommend any proprietary crap (you are referring probably to contrib which is off by default as it is non-free). Have you even used Debian?

>Iceweasel for instance uses Mozilla's extension site I believe.

So what?
He who wants to install a proprietary extension for the browser WILL install it on Debian just as on Triskel or whatever. Iceweasel doesn't recommend anything.

The few packages with the Artistic License 1.0 are all double or triple licensed with GPL or some others approved licenses.

ADFENO
Desconectado
Joined: 12/31/2012

I think that the reason for the existence of the separated add-ons
repository for, for example, GNU IceCat is exactly because of the issues
caused by the suggestions made by Mozilla's add-ons repository

As a somewhat unrelated issue, although still discussing the issues
about dependencies, recommendations and suggestions: As recall watching
a speech, whose video was shared here, in which they were discussing
whether packages which were removed from repositories due to not being
free software should also be removed from other packages'
meta-data/controls.

The reasoning for the removal from meta-data/control seems to be that
the absence of such package and the presence of it in other packages'
meta-data/controls makes these packages "cite" the formers, and so
contribute indirectly to non-free software dependency, recommendation or
suggestion. So, for example, let's say that I'm a very novice free
software student, and I have problems with my GPU, and I know how to use
Aptitude, and I have heard from a "free software supporter", that's a
"friend of mine" that "Linux" can load "modules", and that these can
include GPU drivers. So in Aptitude I would find, FOR EXAMPLE:

linux-image
Suggests:
- linux-modules-nonfree (NOT AVAILABLE)

So now "I" have a "hint" as to what I should look for. A non-free software.

But in the other side, the reasoning for NOT removing the associated
meta-data/control from other packages SEEMS TO BE that could create
quite complex situations where, although the package is know to work
with the "newly acquired non-free software", it doesn't change the fact
that the main package will still not use the "acquired non-free
software". Furthermore, if the user decides to uninstall the free
dependency/recommendation/suggestion in order to use the "acquired
non-free software" as a replacement, the main package's
meta-data/controls will be read by the system's package manager and the
system will complain that the main package must be uninstalled.

Personally speaking, I'm in favor of the removal of all references to
non-free software in repositories and packages' meta-data/controls.
Besides, to me, the complex situation used to describe the opposite
argument's viewpoint could be easily solved by telling the package
manager to hold the main package. Furthermore, to my understanding, the
user who chooses to install the non-free package will still need to
configure the main package to use the "acquired non-free package", and
to me that would be something interesting to watch.

SuperTramp83

I am a translator!

Desconectado
Joined: 10/31/2014

Adfeno: Hi mate!
I will repeat myself for the 600th time: he who wants to install a proprietary piece of software WILL install it no matter which distro he uses. Some distros make it more difficult to do so, but that is another matter and not even an important one.
All this work creating a special repo for addons it's good but it is nowhere essential. The one who absolutely and intimately decides not to install a proprietary whatever software will check 3 times the license of every and each package he downloads/installs outside of the libre repository.
I can guarantee you that.
The one who hasn't made that "absolute and intimate, strongly convinced decision" will install whatever proprietary crap on Trisquel as on Parabola as on Debian etc etc.
I see it this way: you can not force people into freedom. I'm not saying that implying that it is unethical (forcing people into anything could be viewed as unethical).
But I am not saying that. I'm just saying that it doesn't work. Sadly you can force people into slavery and dependence but you can not force them into freedom. It just doesn't work that way. It never did. It never will.
One does not become free because he installed gnewsense or Ututo. One becomes free when he unconditionally decides he will never ever and for no reason install/use/share proprietary software.
cheers

Magic Banana

I am a member!

Desconectado
Joined: 07/24/2010

My parents (for instance) do not want to install proprietary software. They want extensions for their Web browser though. They have no idea what license is free and what license is not. And I do not see why users who want to be free would have to know about licenses. With Debian, my parents would probably end up installing proprietary software (against their will!). That is one of the main reason why I installed Trisquel on their computers (not that I don't install Trisquel on mine!).

cooloutac
Desconectado
Joined: 06/27/2015

you and calinou didn't bother, thats why you are using debian instead. probably cause it would defeat the purpose of trisquel and is Easier then compiling your own kernel.

SuperTramp83

I am a translator!

Desconectado
Joined: 10/31/2014

https://trisquel.info/en/forum/difference-between-linux-libre-kernel-and-debian-main-kernel#comment-81603

see what I'm talking about? Some "micropower douche-inside" (to cite from quantumgravity) just downvoted my post above. The post is correct. It is polite and correct. There is no false info or anything that offends anyone. Yet the microdouche just pressed - with his stupid finger and let out the idiot inside without even leaving a phrase explaining why my post is not good. Now it just takes another douche to do the same for my correct and polite post to go censored and disappear, marked as inappropriate, incorrect, whatever.
See why this utter voting crap has to go?

Btw. Whoever downvoted it: fuck you!

P.S - please do feel free to downvote this one being that it is very very impolite.

ADFENO
Desconectado
Joined: 12/31/2012

I personally have never used this voting system. Specially because I
like mailing lists. :D

moxalt
Desconectado
Joined: 06/19/2015

I don't ever upvote or downvote either (I can't anyway; I post by mail). If I
have a disagreement with something, I'll say it.

cooloutac
Desconectado
Joined: 06/27/2015

not true? lol, the whole reason you are using debian is because your proprietary stuff doesn't work on trisquel... imo, you are the proof itself as to why debian is not 100% libre. You don't have to add any 3rd party repos for your proprietary drivers.

SuperTramp83

I am a translator!

Desconectado
Joined: 10/31/2014

barf barf barf
--
Post edited by admin to remove inapropiate content.

cooloutac
Desconectado
Joined: 06/27/2015

barf barf barf
--
Post edited by admin to remove inapropiate content.

quantumgravity
Desconectado
Joined: 04/22/2013

I guess it was quidam who compromised your system remotely from his debian machine; or maybe rms or both.
They like to hang out together and share some proprietary apps, that's what i've heard.

cooloutac
Desconectado
Joined: 06/27/2015

I don't think Quidam would do something like that, he is one of the nicest people I've met involved with linux, and I'm sure rms is busy with other things...lol

quantumgravity
Desconectado
Joined: 04/22/2013

Why the hell got this downvoted? It was obviously a JOKE

cooloutac
Desconectado
Joined: 06/27/2015

barf barf barf
--
Post edited by admin to remove inapropiate content.

SuperTramp83

I am a translator!

Desconectado
Joined: 10/31/2014

barf barf barf
--
Post edited by admin to remove inapropiate content.

cooloutac
Desconectado
Joined: 06/27/2015

1. I have installed qubes-os now. I use it for some sensitive things but its still experimental and limited for me, and my hardware can't take full advantage of its security features. But it is not as hard to use as many think. Trisquel is still my main o/s for most things. Ironically, now there is the most vulnerable xen bug ever found in history that just got patched...so I guess more eyes on the code is working?

2. Yes shellshock got a 10/10 in every single cve category. heartbleed was only a 2 or 5 in some cases. And yes those are my personal experiences on windows vs linux as well as the changing public view by security experts. Again my reasons for preferring free software over windows, is not solely because of security per say, but because I find Microsoft and more so Apple, to be too restrictive , unscrupulous and untrustworthy companies.

3. Ask quidam yourself.

4. Ask quidam yourself.

5. I don't consider grub password totally useless at all, especially if you use a laptop in public places. Sorry many disagree.

barf barf barf
--
Post edited by admin to remove inapropiate content.

moxalt
Desconectado
Joined: 06/19/2015

> Any more questions supertramp83, the non free debian gamer?

Evidence?

And even if he was a 'non-free Debian gamer', why should it matter? I don't see
him recommending non-free software. Unlike you, it should be noted, who prefers
a good dose of Winblows over GNU/Linux any day. Not only is this far more
extreme than recommending (even if it is true) non-free firmware, you have done
it publicly in the forum, on record, unlike ST83, who has only done such things
according to you. No one else seems to remember him going round saying things
like that.

cooloutac
Desconectado
Joined: 06/27/2015

barf barf barf
--
Post edited by admin to remove inapropiate content.

Legimet
Desconectado
Joined: 12/10/2013

What's wrong if people use Debian? I use both Debian and Trisquel.

moxalt
Desconectado
Joined: 06/19/2015

> Be a man and dump your debian and install a 100% libre distro

If you hadn't noticed, Debian is already 100% free by default. My Debian system
is also 100% free. I do not use the non-free repositories. I have not used
them, do not use them, and will never use them.

I use Debian. I do not use Trisquel, and like ST83, did not use it for more
than a few months. I feel there is nothing hypocritical in promoting Trisquel
while using Debian. While they are both essentially free distributions, Debian
also provides a non-free repository. As long as one does not enable the
non-free or contrib repositories, and only uses the default main repository
(like I do) then Debian is also a fully free system. Personally I prefer Debian
over Trisquel. I know what I'm doing and can keep it free.

However, Trisquel is the distribution I recommend to and install for others
because it is more newbie-friendly and makes it harder to stray from the path
of freedom. It is ideal for those new to free software.

So I use Debian, but promote Trisquel. I see no hypocrisy.

cooloutac
Desconectado
Joined: 06/27/2015

So what are you doing here then? Weird, in another post you are saying a future trisquel should be based on debian implying it is newby friendly and better then ubuntu, but yet here you are in this post saying you recommend trisquel over debian because debian is too advanced for new gnulinux users? hmmm...

I think we can figure out what your true motives are. You use Debian for the same reasons some others do, Because it is more popular and you are scared or ashamed to use a distro that is not as supported by alot of people. You don't feel as superior over others using it because it is not part of the cool crowd. You also can't get noticed on the debian forums or help channels like you can with trisquel to feed your ego. Thats basically what it boils down to.

IMO, you don't do any favors recommending trisquel, but publicly stating you never used it yourself and prefer debian, Or stating that to your friends privately. Because in reality, that promotes debian more then trisquel.

That would be like mint and ubuntu supporters and contributors not actually using ubuntu or mint. Ludicrous. Even the gov't hacking spies that lurk in there make it their main distro. If their supporters didnt' use it themselves, they would never have gotten so popular. That would be like manjaro users using Arch, manjaro never would have gone anywhere if that was the case.

Trisquel is too nooby for you to use? There is no such thing. It just doesn't work like that bud, It can do anything any other distro can do, and imo better then debian in all aspects. If you want I can go on and on about why. You are not doing trisquel any favors, you are actually hurting it and I hope people learn if we actually want trisquel to be as popular as debian, We need less posers.

moxalt
Desconectado
Joined: 06/19/2015

> So what are you doing here then?

I was Trisquel user for several months. I joined the forum some time into my
Trisquel adventure. I remain because I enjoy partaking in the discussion and
helping GNUbies when I can. I use GNU/Linux and free software generally. I
think that gives me license enough to be here- and on top of that I have
experience with running Debian-based distributions (including Trisquel) which
means I can occasionally lend a hand (though others usually beat me to it). I
don't recommend non-free software or use it. I promote free software when the
opportunity presents itself. I think I have every right to be here.

> Weird, in another thread you are saying
> a future trisquel should be based on debian implying it is newby friendly,
> but yet here you are in this thread saying you recommend trisquel over
> debian because it is more newby friendly? Are you confused?

You have completely misrepresented my argument. I did not say that Trisquel
should be based on Debian because Debian was newbie-friendly, but because
Debian is primarily a free software project, which should be supported by free
derivatives. I think distributions based on Ubuntu are a bad thing, because
they support Ubuntu, which is a heinous pile of 'open-source' blocking out the
sun in the free world.

Regardless of where it draws packages from, Trisquel will be more user-friendly
than Debian because unlike Debian, Trisquel's entire purpose is to be
user-friendly and usable by the masses. Trisquel being based on Debian would
not in any way result in sacrificing user-friendliness, because the Trisquel DE
could be kept, the Trisquel community, website, and most of the documentation
could be kept, even the spins (Mini, Standard) could be kept. Trisquel being
based on Debian or Ubuntu has no significant impact on user-friendliness, just
package sources.

It is you who is confused.

> I think we can figure out what your true motives are. You use Debian for
> the same reasons some others do, Because it is more popular and you are
> scared or ashamed to use a distro that is not supported by alot of people.

Popularity in itself is not an argument for anything. If I was really just in
it for the popularity, I'd be using Windows and not GNU/Linux.

I use Debian because I want newer and more vanilla packages, more control over
my system, and freedom from the Ubuntu taint. I personally prefer Debian over
Trisquel, and that is hardly a crime. I see no point in going on witch-hunts
for Debian users.

I am no longer a newbie, and I care about my freedom. I also know how to stay
free, and ensure that I do not install non-free software. That is why I do not
have contrib or non-free enabled in my /etc/apt/sources.list, and do not
install non-free software from third party sources either.

To others, however, I recommend Trisquel because it is more user-friendly, has
a (mostly) friendly community, and has a stronger stance towards non-free
software than, say, Debian. I also install Trisquel for others and prepare
Trisquel installation media for new users of GNU/Linux.

> Trisquel is not part enough of the cool crowd for you, You don't feel
> superior over othoers using it.

This is not true. I prefer Debian. I use Debian because I prefer it. I myself
went from using Debian (and after discovering free software) to using Trisquel
and back to using Debian. Trisquel is certainly not beneath me- if I was that
egotistical and 'coolness'-obsessed I certainly would not be associating myself
with Trisquel by even participating in this forum.

> You also can't get noticed on the debian
> forums or help channels like you can with trisquel to feed your ego. Thats
> basically what it boils down to.

This is essentially true. I am not an established member of the Debian
community. I have found a niche here, and I like it that way.

> IMO, you don't do any favors recommending trisquel, but publicly stating
> you use debian and never even used trisquel for more then a few months.
> Because in reality, that promotes debian more then trisquel.

Yeah... no. Most people haven't even heard of GNU at all, let alone Trisquel
and Debian. I recommend Trisquel to everyone I talk to about free software. But
if someone asked me what distro I used, then I wouldn't lie to them about it. I
use Debian, and admit it when asked.

> That would be like mint and ubuntu supporters and contributors not actually
> using ubuntu or mint. Ludicrous.

Not really. Exclusively using the distribution you develop is not a requirement
of contributing to said distribution. On the other hand, if someone promoted a
distribution without using it, I don't see how that is hypocritical. I use
Debian for certain reasons, and I promote Trisquel for other reasons.

> We need less people like you.

Who's the one criticising GNU/Linux for being 'insecure' and praising Windows
for the opposite? Who's the one insisting that freedom doesn't matter, only
'privacy', mangling the whole free software philosophy? Who's the one leading
witch-hunts to root out the users of another free distribution, Debian? Who's
the one making no positive contributions whatsoever?

That's right. You. We need less people like you.

B50D
Desconectado
Joined: 05/30/2015

debian kernel is linux-libre with patches of debian developers

onpon4
Desconectado
Joined: 05/30/2012

No it isn't. Debian has its own deblobbing process which is slightly different from Linux-libre's. See above.

B50D
Desconectado
Joined: 05/30/2015

srly? i didn't know

SuperTramp83

I am a translator!

Desconectado
Joined: 10/31/2014

in case you wonder who down-voted each and every single one of your posts - it was me. I'll do that every time one of my posts or anybody else's post gets unjustly and inappropriately down-voted.
peace :)

onpon4
Desconectado
Joined: 05/30/2012

I'm sorry, but that is unacceptable behavior. First of all, who are you to judge whether a downvote was "just" and "appropriate", and second of all, how do you presume to know who did it?

SuperTramp83

I am a translator!

Desconectado
Joined: 10/31/2014

I'm sorry, but that is unacceptable behavior. First of all, who are you to judge whether a downvote was "just" and "appropriate", and second of all, how do you presume to know who did it?

I'm just saying I see this behavior all the time here. Useful and honest posts get downvoted.
I don't care who does it. I don't like this abuse of the - button. That's all.
this is not reddit nor facebook.

onpon4
Desconectado
Joined: 05/30/2012

Targeting random individuals with your own abuse of the - button is not going to end or even reduce abuse of the - button.

SuperTramp83

I am a translator!

Desconectado
Joined: 10/31/2014

sure Onpon. We both know that is true. I'm pretty aware my decision is stupid and won't solve anything in this regard. But it is my way to express my view in this particular matter - consider it a protest against this highly abused and almost useless feature. You want a good forum? IMHO you need to remove this voting nonsense and place a "troll detected" button. As simple as that.

Legimet
Desconectado
Joined: 12/10/2013
SuperTramp83

I am a translator!

Desconectado
Joined: 10/31/2014

let me see:

I always read your text :)
Don't like the voting system and will never get tired repeating it. Never downvoted or upvoted a single post on this forum or any forum in general. I prefer words especially when I have to express simpathy or disagreement which are very important human feelings and require human words. not numbers or - +
I ignore the voting stuff and don't use it. never will.
But if you like it - well go ahead! I respect your (all of you not just magicb) opinion.

>Don't like the voting system and will never get tired repeating it.

In fact I'm repeating it right now. I did not get tired repeating it

>Never downvoted or upvoted a single post on this forum or any forum in general.

When I wrote that that was absolutely true. I wish you could go back and view the likings or dislikes and confirm that.
Weeks or months later I started liking some posts (rarely) and disliking absolutely inappropriate or trolling/rude posts (even more rarely).

>I prefer words especially when I have to express simpathy or disagreement which are very important human feelings and require human words. not numbers or - +

This, perfectly written.

>I ignore the voting stuff and don't use it.

At the time when I wrote it that was absolutely the truth.

> never will.

I did use it later (months later) but when I rote that I sincerely believed I would not (ever). I guess too much Diaspora (never used any other social network before and had a very negative idea about sn and + and - and crap like that) influenced me a little. It can happen.

>But if you like it - well go ahead! I respect your (all of you not just magicb) opinion.

I respect all opinions but this crap has to go.

Now, can you tell me where did I lie?
Please do tell me, don't dislike or ignore this post. Rather use "words especially when you have to express simpathy or disagreement which are very important human feelings and require human words".

Legimet
Desconectado
Joined: 12/10/2013

Not exactly a lie, but you said you would never use it, and here you are abusing it. If you're really against the abuse of the voting system as you claim to be, why are you doing it yourself? That makes no sense. (BTW, I agree with you that this forum should stop hiding posts, although I don't think the voting system should be completely removed)

SuperTramp83

I am a translator!

Desconectado
Joined: 10/31/2014

>Not exactly a lie

A lie or not? There is no such thing as "not exactly a lie".

>but you said you would never use it, and here you are abusing it.

Read above. I already explained the "you said you would never use it" part.
Yes, I am abusing it and will keep to do so as long as it is here.

>If you're really against the abuse of the voting system as you claim to be, why are you doing it yourself?

That too, I already explained. It's the only thing I see available to me to express my rejection. Ironically by abusing an abused system I express my dislike for the abused system.

https://trisquel.info/en/forum/popcorn-time-wishes-you-merry-gravmassssssssssss#comment-61619

SuperTramp83

I am a translator!

Desconectado
Joined: 10/31/2014

barf barf barf
--
Post edited by admin to remove inapropiate content.

onpon4
Desconectado
Joined: 05/30/2012

I don't much like the system either, and I've experienced the negative effects (though it's nowhere near the level I experienced on Reddit), but participating abuse of a system prone to abuse is not a good way to protest it for being prone to abuse. That just makes you look like a hypocrite.

SuperTramp83

I am a translator!

Desconectado
Joined: 10/31/2014

I guess I'll look like a hypocrite then. I know that I'm not one. If you think I am while I'm not that's fine. You are free and should be free to think whatever you want. I think this downvoting system is a crap feature that censors posts and kills rational and productive discussion. I see no other way to express my dislike. So I'll keep "participating in the system prone to abuse".
hypocritically
st83

quantumgravity
Desconectado
Joined: 04/22/2013

I ally myself with you, st.
This system is major bullshit.

You know what i would find funny?
If somebody who downvotes a certain post had to write a short explanation below _why_ he downvoted it.
I'm sure a lot of people couldn't.
I'm sure a lot of people just enjoy letting out the little asshole inside of them because in real life they are too much of a coward to do it.
And they also know that they have no counter arguments whatsoever concerning the post, so it's great for them to just push this button like an idiot and think "yeeeah i'm stupid but i have a microscopic kind of power"

davidnotcoulthard (non verificado)
davidnotcoulthard

Come on let's just have Quidam get the number indicating "-"-es down leaving only the buttons to - or + them and the colour that the number of them can result in.

alimiracle
Desconectado
Joined: 01/18/2014

in fact The problem is not from voteing system but from abuse of voteing system
Quidam put this system to Protect the Community Guidelines.
BTW, Imagine someone Down vote Quidam texts
lol

davidnotcoulthard (non verificado)
davidnotcoulthard

@moxalt I guess Trisquel possibly forked from Ubuntu because Ubuntu's non-prerelease-labelled software was more up-to-date (keep in mind Ruben did STS releases too up until Brigantia which I never used as my main runner).

Anyway, what would GnewSense (as new as the Skoda Rapid lives up to its model name) be should Trisquel go Debian (to see them join would be nice, but that would bring down the number of non-"unstable"-distro-based distros to be chosen - not that Gnewsense was an attractive option for too many people)?

Actually maybe the reason Trisquel is sticking to Ubuntu is to avoid reinventing too much of the Wheel, or rather Debian fork?

(Honestly Trisquel should just joing GnewSense and split into 2 teams one of them doing a Devuan fork....should Devuan succeed which I hope it does because those on HDD like I am (along with some others, HuangLao comes to mind) wouldn't boot that fast even with Systemd and may because of that not see Systemd's benefits and may want to use SysVinit instead (for the sake of it, or for HuangLao's reasons, etc).

cooloutac
Desconectado
Joined: 06/27/2015

well when you guys say up to date, that means new features imo. Security updates are still received on lts releases, and I look at it as less new bugs/security issues are introduced and it remains more stable.

davidnotcoulthard (non verificado)
davidnotcoulthard

This was about Ruben's opinion (about how things were....almost a decade ago or so) rather than mine, or yours, though......but yeah. Your opinion, his decision :)

cooloutac
Desconectado
Joined: 06/27/2015

I'm not sure what you are saying, is his opinion any different?

I'm pretty sure trisquel's original purpose was for educational environments and to be user friendly as its primary goals. I've heard him say in interviews himself that its about usability and accessibility. I think its pretty obvious that ubuntu fits that goal more then debian.