Libreboot X200 returns on Minifree
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Hi everyone :)
Libreboot is a fully free BIOS/UEFI replacement (boot firmware) for starting a bootloader and loading your operating system. Minifree is offering a version of the ThinkPad X200 with Libreboot and Trisquel GNU+Linux preinstalled right out of the box.
It's at a reduced price compared to what it was at before, as part of the December 2017 and January 2018 periods. The Minifree T400 is on the current 2017 FSF giving guide. I added the X200 on Minifree today, and have also asked the FSF to add the X200 to their page.
Here it is:
https://minifree.org/product/libreboot-x200/
This is also certified by the FSF under Respects Your Freedom criteria. If you want a small, portable laptop that is entirely libreboot from the BIOS up, the Libreboot X200 is a perfect choice.
~Leah
Thinkpads X200 perform just great with GNU/Linux Trisquel.
--
Ignacio Agulló · name at domain
Hooray for Libreboot! :-D
One question I have about it though: is it modelled on the BIOS style of booting (MBR), or EFI? Or can it do both?
(Sorry if this seems like a silly question)
It uses the GNU GRUB bootloader, which is part of Libreboot. It's configured in such a way as to provide boot options for various media types including USB, and the menu is configurable.
Thanks for answering my question, Leah, although I don't think that was quite what I was getting at. As I understand it, there are two firmware 'paradigms': BIOS and EFI, which are quite different in the way they work. So, I am wondering if the Libreboot firmware is more similar to BIOS or EFI, or is it somewhere in the middle? Or, is it completely different to both?
For example, can it boot up from both MBR-type hard disks and GPT hard disks that have an EFI System Partition?
(or perhaps I'm just misunderstanding something about firmware and asking silly questions?)
If you want something that resembles a BIOS you could build libreboot with SeaBIOS and get something you'd think of as a BIOS. Or compile libreboot with TianoCore which is a UEFI implementation. But those are separate things that get compiled as a "payload" they call it. But neither coreboot nor libreboot in and of themselves provide any services that you would expect with a traditional BIOS or UEFI.
The common thing for libreboot people is that they use GRUB as the payload and not SeaBIOS or TianoCore so what you have there is something completely different from BIOS or UEFI.
Actually, the latest version of Libreboot, which comes preinstalled on these laptops, uses a custom payload called "SeaGRUB". It's SeaBIOS, configured to immediately load GRUB after 0s, without allowing any other option, where both SeaBIOS and GRUB are in the flash chip alongside coreboot-libre (the coreboot version that libreboot uses).
In the GRUB menu of Libreboot, you can use BIOS services such as chainload and so on. This is commonly used for booting non-GNU+Linux systems, such as various BSD systems.
To the normal user, it just looks like a normal GRUB payload but it is in fact SeaGRUB as described above. Timothy Pearson, a former member of the project, came up with the idea, and I implemented it in Libreboot.
This was done in the current Libreboot release, as a compromise so that BIOS services were available to the user. In the Git repository, we have a substantially improved version of this which uses BIOS GRUB compiled to a floppy image (.img file) stored in the flash chip, where SeaBIOS still loads GRUB immediately, but SeaBIOS initializes the video display instead of GRUB, using the libre SeaVGABIOS module in SeaBIOS... basically this further improves compatibility with other free OSes besides GNU+Linux. Andrew Robbins and Swiftgeek on #libreboot IRC worked on it, and it will be in the next release of Libreboot.
Ok, thank you for these details - this is all very interesting :)
Ok, thanks jxself. It seems that I had some misconception about how the firmware/bootloader interact. So, it sounds like the main differences between BIOS and UEFI are in the services they provide after the hardware is initialized (which in Libreboot is determined by the payload)?
So, am I correct in saying that, in the case of Libreboot with Grub, the distinction between MBR and GPT-partitioned hard disks doesn't really matter? Because Grub is already loaded, so as long as it can find the grub.cfg file and the /boot folder, it should be ok.
"So, am I correct in saying that, in the case of Libreboot with Grub, the distinction between MBR and GPT-partitioned hard disks doesn't really matter? Because Grub is already loaded, so as long as it can find the grub.cfg file and the /boot folder, it should be ok."
Yeah, it doesn't really matter. You should be able to use anything that GRUB itself supports.
For booting GNU+Linux, you don't even need BIOS/UEFI. GRUB boots the linux kernel directly.
For other OS e.g. BSD, ReactOS(not yet supported) you would need BIOS services. The free "SeaBIOS" payload provides this. The next version of Libreboot will have a substantially improved "SeaGRUB" implementation as previously described.
hi libreleah
I'm one of the members of uruk project
can Minifree offering a version of the ThinkPad X200 with Libreboot and uruk GNU+Linux preinstalled right out of the box????
My usual answer would be no, since this isn't technically endorsed by the FSF. However, since Uruk is closely based on Trisquel, then I think it would be OK.
In the textbox on the checkout page when you order, mention that you would like Uruk instead of Trisquel, and I will see what I can do.
I am a member!
I notice that Debian was recently changed back to Trisquel on the
Minifree site. What was the reason for that decision?
I actually went into the Wayback because I was confused when I saw
Trisquel again.
It was decided that Trisquel would be re-introduced, so that Minifree's systems could remain in compliance with FSF Respects Your Freedom criteria.
well done leah! i'm defenetely gonna buy one of those
I am about to purchase one from minifree and...
I may sound a bit paranoid, but do you think the NSA has a program to implant a bug in computers like this in transit?
I recently read about A2: Analog Malicious Hardware, and it seems possible that NSA may already be using it.
Also, if I am using a router from verizon, what would I need to do to secure my computer (assuming it's libreboot with trisquel) from the NSA.
What would be the advantage of getting a libre router?
On 07/12/17 19:19, wrote:
> I am about to purchase one from minifree and...
> I may sound a bit paranoid, but do you think the NSA has a program to
> implant a bug in computers like this in transit?
Go to London, buy it in person.
--
Ignacio Agulló · name at domain
I see... I guess I'll buy it some other time then.
The price is big but you know what you take .
Buy it from here :
The security implications of having a laptop shipped to you is identical, whether you purchase from that company or Minifree. They are both the same product.
The difference is price. Minifree's X200 is half the price of Techno's X200
I am a member!
I don't want to start an argument, especially since we at Technoethical believe that there is enough room for everyone in the world to sell laptops with fully free BIOS and fully free OS. And we have other priorities, like not disappointing our customers that are waiting to get their orders delivered.
The difference between Technoethical's X200 and "Mini's X200" (marketed as Libreboot X200 -- double wink for Leah) is not only the price, but also the time, care and money that we put into refurbishing and replacing components for the laptops that we sell. Our prices guarantee a fair trade.
We reinvest everything that is left after paying for our modest living costs, donations to projects, and participation to free software events, into stocking to allow us to keep our product quality standard and at the same time process orders faster -- delivery time is something we definitely need to improve. In practice, Technoethical works in a nonprofit fashion as our foundation Ceata.
We do plan to offer for sale at lower prices liberated and fully functional laptops with components that we couldn't refurbish and with lower specifications (battery, WiFi, Bluetooth, memory, optical unit).
In connection with OP's question, besides Romania in European Union we operate from other different countries (like USA, Russia, Australia) where our members live and ship locally. We often deliver orders to the customers that attend free software events that one or more of our members also attend or even on our way back from these events. :-) Free software people interested in local shipping or personal delivery can send us an e-mail and we'll see if we can arrange it.
Several customers visiting the countries that we live in have been able to meet with us and see how their laptops are liberated and refurbished live, or if they didn't have that much time, simply enjoy a talk with us about free software. It's always nice when we can have a real-life human interaction with our customers!
Tiberiu
Hi Tiberiu :)
We share a mutual interest, and yes if you can afford the extra price, Technoethical is also an excellent alternative to Minifree if you are looking for libreboot laptops.
Just FYI, all current Minifree orders are on time to arrive to their recipients before christmas. I also confirm that Minifree, like Technoethical, has quality assurance measures in place to ensure that the laptops we ship are the highest quality possible.
All of Minifree's profits, after covering my living costs (which are low. I live frugally), are reinvested into Libreboot, or saved for future Libreboot investment.
As founder of the Libreboot project, and as a current member, I wholeheartedly endorse both Technoethical and my own company, Minifree.
Libreboot's suppliers page lists both companies, and others, here:
https://libreboot.org/suppliers.html
~Leah
EDIT: I would also like to note the Phreedom 2600 company that was recently added to that page:
https://libreboot.org/suppliers.html#phreedom-2600
This company also offers the X200, at the same price as Minifree. So now there are 2 low-cost alternatives to Technoethical :)
I am a member!
On Fri, 2017-12-08 at 18:32 +0100, name at domain wrote:
> I don't want to start an argument,
...
> like not disappointing our customers that are waiting to get their orders
> delivered.
No comment.
> The difference between Technoethical's X200 and "Mini's X200" (marketed as
> Libreboot X200 -- double wink for Leah) ...
This paragraph is no better than the first.
> Free software people
> interested in local shipping or personal delivery can send us an e-mail and
> we'll see if we can arrange it.
This is nice. Can you by any chance get to Kansas City?
--
Caleb Herbert
OpenPGP public key: http://bluehome.net/csh/pubkey
The NSA is just as capable of intercepting a shipment from Technoethical. If you believe that you are a target of the NSA, you should buy the laptop in person or at minimum have it shipped to a location outside the States.
Technoethical and Minifree are both reliable vendors who respect your freedom. Please don't spread nonsense that could cause this thread to escalate into an argument.
The risk of it actually happening is small. Nonetheless, Minifree can also provide tamper-proof seals and other means of mitigating the risk. You have to make sure you have a GPG keyring for your email, then import our public key (from the contact page). Do not order through the website, send us your info via email: name, address, telephone number etc and what you would like to purchase. We will send you a custom invoice. This level of secrecy partially mitigates the risk.
Then before shipping, I would make such modifications to the laptop and send you pictures, encrypted, of what to check when it arrives.
This isn't a foolproof method, and only covers disassembly. For software tampering, we can also provide a secured configuration; see:
https://libreboot.org/docs/gnulinux/encrypted_trisquel.html
https://libreboot.org/docs/gnulinux/grub_hardening.html
Minifree can also accept in-person visits, in exceptional circumstances. Normally we don't do it, as stated on the website, but we do sometimes make exceptions.
Good to know. Thanks Leah. I look forward to buying from you when my X60 finally dies. X60's seem to be immortal though.
Libreboot is working on the X220, right? Is there an ETA for that?
Not yet, unfortunately. I've had to delay that work, hence the X200 re-launch. The 15 or so people who pre-ordered the X220 have all been notified as of today, asking what they would like to do regarding their order.
Minifree is selling the X200 and T400 for the forseeable future, until I either finish that work or devise an alternative.
Sorry for Starting this.
But personally believe that technoetic is a better company that REALY support Free Software with products and Donations.
Also, when I first learn about Libreboot for stallman computing page,
I went to libreboot and learn about a MiniFree and then I start to search for the libreleah. Because I have read that she is in the Libreboot Project and I was thinking that Mini free have good Free Software Computer to buy . (Because libreleah is working on Libreboot project) (In my mind was Libreboot=Minifree) (Name MiniFree Product name Libreboot X200 [Only minifree do that]) .
After a research I found there is more companies and I said to myself why she is in the Libreboot Project and She created a Company base on Libreboot .
Then on some days I saw that Libreboot Then I have read some article for libreleah and after a long time I saw again libreboot back in Gnu Again.
After that I saw at Trisquel forum a post from tehnoetic for T400s, I jump in the post and as I was reading I saw an answer from liberally that says something problem with T400s and then I read in another answer to Tiberiu that she says [ I know more for libreboot trust me ] . Also, she said that Mini Free is working with T400 and it better. In 1 week she starts again with X200.
(So now in my mind is liberally = Money).
Sorry for my English.
Ministry of Freedom is better!
My Libreboot X200 bought in 2016 is perfect!
So? Who wins?
No one wins my friend .
At the end all we will lose if this will go on .
my beleve is that Minifree must change product name to MiniFree x200 .
And Libreleah it was not supposed to Answer at Tehnoetic post for T400s .
The tehnoetic do there job .
Also Libreleah must do .
(Customers have the voice No the other Companies)
Sorry for my English
Btw I repeatedly said, in this thread, that Technoethical is also a good alternative to Minifree. This, in spite of them spamming about themselves in this thread that wasn't about them.
At no point have I ever told people not to buy from Technoethical. I have only ever asked Technoethical to stop slandering and trashing Minifree in this thread. All I want is for the dispute to either end, or not resume.
I am a member!
On Thu, 2017-12-07 at 20:20 +0100, Ignacio Agulló wrote:
> Go to London, buy it in person.
Last time I heard, Leah does not do in-person purchases or deliveries.
It says this on the website, but I do sometimes make exceptions. The last time I met someone was about 3 months ago.
Beware of Intel blood CPU's which are manufactured on occupied land. Avoid buying new ones, please just use repurposed ones like LibreLeah's if you really have to
https://www.stopthewall.org/2005/08/05/boycott-intel-products-setting-factory-palestinian-stolen-lands
The factory is still going strong. While software freedom is vital to the interest of all humanity, so are freedom of humans who are in the world's largest, open air prison.
This book helps clarify.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fateful_Triangle
Free Occupied Palestine.
https://stallman.org/archives/2017-sep-dec.html#7_December_2017_(Capital_of_Israel)
I am a member!
On Fri, 2017-12-08 at 15:10 +0100, name at domain wrote:
> The laptops are not so ethical as they still use Intel CPU's which are
> manufactured on occupied land.
> https://www.stopthewall.org/2005/08/05/boycott-intel-products-setting-factory-palestinian-stolen-lands
If I'm not mistaken, the program that makes GNU Info manuals readable is
written in Israel by an Israeli. I urge you not to read any
documentation for GNU programs, including but not limited to Emacs, Guix
and Lilypond.
--
Caleb Herbert
OpenPGP public key: http://bluehome.net/csh/pubkey
@Callher What is the point of having free software when you need to steal land, forcibly intern the populace, throw children in prison, and engage in extrajudical mass executions. "Well, at least they write nice free software manuals! https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/
Writing nice software manuals does not give you a passport to do evil.
However, there is an Israel journalist, Amira Hass, who lives in the occupied territories and documents Israel's ongoing injustice against Palestinians.
https://www.amazon.com/Drinking-Sea-Gaza-Nights-Under/dp/0805057404
You can borrow this book at a library. Not all Israelis support the ongoing evil. In fact, many Israelis are doing hard time in prison for refusing to be part of the opression of Palestinians.
However, Israel still needs to be taken to task for opression committed. I have no idea what the stance is of the Israeli who writes the software manuals, but the concern must be brought up and not merely excused.
I am a member!
Free software requires free manuals. There are no ifs, ands or buts
about it.
If you think the software that prepares GNU manuals for publication is
too inhumane, then I encourage you to write a more humane replacement.
The Third Reich also made great strides in cancer research. IBM also worked with the Third Reich to help with computer development and data processing. I am sure someone like you said the exact same thing when all that went down. : - ) Or is it that some humans are more equal than others in your world?
@calher To help you out a little, because it does not seem to getting through, that fellow's image you use for an avantar says to pick the ethical choice over the convenient choice. While certainly convenience may be easy in the short term, in the long term it does more damage.
If that fellow is not convincing enough for you, then maybe this fellow will help too:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/08/stephen-hawking-israel-academic-boycott
Some reading to educate yourself:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_%28comics%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pity_the_Nation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_War_for_civilisation
So for this Israeli manual writer, I am encouraging those users to speak out against opression. Not all Israelis are for the ongoing Colonialist, state-sanctioned subjugation and mass murder of Palestinians. You can say, "Hey, thanks for the manual. Ixnay on the opression thing, mmmkay?"
Godwins law aside, let's not go down that road.
Besides, it's off-topic to the thread.
If someone advertises their products as 'ethical' or 'free', it sort of is on topic. Sort of like buying 'fair trade' products from the Warsaw Ghetto. ; - )
Oh, and Marek Edleman ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek_Edelman ) would strongly object to your 'Godwin's law' comment. But what did he know?
I am a member!
Boycott the British. They're the ones who drew those stupid borders.
Jews bought land in Palestine, fair and square, and their neighbors
still used violence and boycotts against them just for living there.
Forget those people.
If people still want to live there, great. Stay there, but under the
Israeli government. There are Israelis who are Palestinian, and their
gay sons will be safer growing up in Israel.
Hi calher,
Nice to meet an apologist for Israel. Are you one of those paid apologists?
According to UN Resolution 242, you are wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_242
According to Amnesty International, you are wrong:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/
According to professor Noam Chomsky, you are wrong:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fateful_Triangle
According to Professor Richard Stallman, you are wrong:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/free-software-campaigner-richard-stallman-cancels-israel-lectures-due-to-palestinian-pressure-1.364722
The land is in fact, Occupied Palestine. Intel, manufactures on occupied land, as mandated by UN Resolutions 242, this makes them blood cpu's and non ethical. The people in the occupied territories do not have freedoms and are in fact second class citizens. And no, Israelis are not just living there. They commit atrocities on an ongoing basis against the indigenous populace. If some Israelis are nice enough to write free software manuals or even free software, they still need to be called to account for ongoing war crimes and crimes against humanity. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre ) Preferably in the Hague.
Have a pleasant day.
Just to clarify, what LibreLeah is doing is commendable and necessary. We need free software to have a free society and the attendant hardware to facilitate this, which is currently scant. Also LibreLeah does not directly support Intel, rather her business repurposes existing technology to noble aims, thereby also reducing waste. (Another problem in our society.) This is still the early phase of Libre hardware. Even Richard Stallman worked with non-Free hard and software until Libre options are available. I sincerely hope Leah sells her inventory and eventually acquires other options for us. One step at a time. By the way, those Thinkpad bodies are durable as heck!
Intel is certainly bad and buying from them is not ideal. It's unfortunate that there are so few options for libre hardware that as of now it is difficult to avoid using their hardware. I hope that this changes. I'm optimistic about EOMA68.
Are there any laptops available that work with Libreboot that use AMD processors?
I am a translator!
There is not one single laptop with AMD cpu AFAIK :(
The Lenovo G505S is almost at a point where Libreboot could support it. I don't remember what work still needs doing to it but it's close. This uses AMD hardware
i think that laptop use an amd a10 cpu you disabled the AMD Platform Security Processor? How?
That's amazing
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