Petition to ban Masaru Suzuqi
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Masaru Suzuqi
https://trisquel.info/en/users/masaru-suzuqi
This member has been wasting the time of many people here by expecting from us to:
- try to understand his poor English
- read his endless lengthy off-topic speeches
- stand his behavior which has recently become aggressive (he really demands to receive replies to each and every thing which comes to his mind [1])
Although some of us has warned him kindly more than once and although a lot of time has passed, he doesn't seem to learn from that. In fact - it is becoming worse. He is literally flooding the forum with all kinds of off-topic remarks, nationalistic implications etc. and destroys whole threads. As a result I notice other people who post meaningful replies participate less and less.
I suggest that Masaru Suzuqi receives a ban for 1 month. Then if he didn't change his behavior after that - ban for another 2 months. If even after that this continues - it would be time to ban him forever.
If you agree to that, please confirm it and lets ask a moderator to take care of this. Enough is enough. Nobody should hijack the whole forum for his own purposes.
Please continue. Just a few notes.
This kind of topic would belong to troll lounge, in accordance with old users' footsteps. For example:
https://trisquel.info/en/forum/what-do-about-intellectual-dishonesty-trisquel-forum
I would like and respect people's majority opinion democratically. So
>If you agree to that, please confirm it and lets ask a moderator to take care of this.
seems to be a centralized way. Because 1/4... about 1/5 of my posts were upvoted. Only a few posts were downvoted. Thanks very much for you.
So I will stop posting in accordance with the opinions. But would you mind letting me post just a few posts as much as necessary for a while?
Thank you.
"So I will stop posting in accordance with the opinions. But would you mind letting me post just a few posts as much as necessary for a while?"
Please don't stop. Everyone is welcome here.
No. I got tired. I would eat popcorn.
This is a bullshit thread and IMO the one who must be punished for it is the one who opened it. It is a clear personal attack and considering I see no Google Analytics at all on that guy's site - it is a typical example of freetardism and personal abuse (by someone who pretends to defend "ethics"). Everyone is free to put whatever one wants on his own site. That is part of freedom.
> This is a bullshit thread
That thread and the month leading up to it was not this forum's finest moment, and I personally regret how I behaved. I will at least say that you are missing the context, which was a month of thread after thread being derailed by a concern troll who personally attacked Magic Banana on several occasions. I think that the thread was created out of frustration, but it was wrong.
We did not have the "General Free Software Talk" forum at that time. Non-technical discussions unsuitable for "Trisquel Users" were had in the Troll Lounge, so there was no separation between trolling and serious discussions about freedom, which made it hard to keep technical discussions on -topic and to keep non-technical discussions civil.
I hope that things can be worked out with less escalation this time if the recent off-topic conversations can be more consistently kept to the Troll Lounge.
> I see no Google Analytics at all on that guy's site
He must have removed it since then.
The fact that MB keeps spitting at him and counting his posts even now, after such a long time is a confirmation of what I am saying.
Where have I kept spitting at heyjoe? Using the past tense, I explained you the context in which https://trisquel.info/en/forum/what-do-about-intellectual-dishonesty-trisquel-forum was written, since you were not a member of the forum at that time. I ended with "I am glad that heyjoe stopped distributing Google's spyware".
Sorry for showing factual evidences (number of posts) of a flooding of the forum. I tend to prefer such factual evidences to hard language such as "freetardism".
The guy still continues to twist words, e.g. by making an implication that "it is a typical example of freetardism" = "I call directly person X freetard" = "action against the rules". So this bullshit really continues.
"Freetardism" is hard language. As much as "freetard". It derives from "retardism", used to insult people with mental disabilities. Using that language is against the rules in the section "Respect among community members" of https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/trisquel-community-guidelines
I still maintain that what one has on his own web site is his freedom, even if it is a virus.
Google Analytics is nonfree JavaScript running in the Web browsers of the visitors, not on the website. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html says:
You may be running nonfree programs on your computer every day without realizing it—through your web browser. (...) In addition to being nonfree, many of these programs are malware because they snoop on the user. (...) There's one case where it is acceptable to run a nonfree JavaScript program: to send a complaint to the website operators saying they should free or remove the JavaScript code in the site.
There is even an FSF campaign to file complaints to website operators that do not respect our freedom:
Join us in calling for a Web that respects our freedom by being compatible with free software. Use the action box on the right to contact the organization we're currently focusing on and ask them to make their site work without nonfree JavaScript.
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/freejs
If you wish, you can write that "it is typical example of freetardism by RMS and the FSF who pretend to defend 'ethics'", and effectively claim that you better know what computer user freedom is than the main organization promoting it and its president, who started the free software movement.
Yet MB who simply ran out of "arguments" decided to switch to direct dedicated attack mode.
I explained my reasons for opening https://trisquel.info/en/forum/what-do-about-intellectual-dishonesty-trisquel-forum in the last paragraph of the post starting that thread: heyjoe was flooding the forum (far more than Masaru you want banned for this reason) with sarcasm and fallacies to "prove" the free software movement pointless. Good debates do not deal with expressing more arguments. They deal with expressing good arguments.
Forum threads being turned into court rooms or battle fields of clever defense is not what I am interested to read.
Yet you launch on the forum a "Petition to ban Masaru Suzuqi" and you write in the same thread that I "must be punished".
Oh and BTW... it is illegal to misuse anyone's personal data by making it public without consent or possibility for erasure (ref. GDPR), even worse - for the purpose of personal attacks.
What are you talking about? A public website is not personal data. Neither are posts published on public forums and on public mailing lists (where the email addresses of the participants obviously appear).
Setting aside who might be right or wrong, I think that this debate from last year is off-topic here, and more importantly is likely to lead to unproductive escalation if reopened. Since this thread otherwise seems to be winding down, I think it's best to let it do so.
I do want to clarify one thing though:
> If his personal email address was visible (which should not have been in a GDPR compliant system, unless it is absolutely technically necessary)
As users are informed when signing up, Trisquel's forums are synced to the corresponding mailing lists.[1] It is usual and seems technically necessary for email addresses to be visible, at least to subscribers of the list.
You opened a thread dedicated to attacking someone, keep referring to it, keep counting the guy's posts
I have never referred to that thread before yesterday, after Masaru linked to it (I did not react) and after you replied, writing that I "must be punished for it" and that "it is a typical example of freetardism" (I reacted, to defend myself, what looks legitimate, in my humble opinion).
Searching the URL of that thread, the search engine of this website only finds this thread: https://trisquel.info/fr/search/node/https%3A/%252Ftrisquel.info/en/forum/what-do-about-intellectual-dishonesty-trisquel-forum
Anyway, the burden of the proof is on you: please provide factual evidences that I "keep referring to" https://trisquel.info/en/forum/what-do-about-intellectual-dishonesty-trisquel-forum
I have never counted the posts of heyjoe, or any other user, at any other occasion than in the context of that thread, to show that heyjoe was indeed flooding the "Trisquel users" forum.
Again, the burden of the proof is on you: please provide factual evidences that I "keep counting the guy's posts".
as if posting in the forum is something bad, forbidden or limited to N posts per unit time
I have never expressed anything like that. Please provide factual evidences of the opposite.
you dedicated a lengthy post to here to outline a whole lot of negativism against someone who is not even a member any more (and thus not able to even respond or defend himself).
No, I did not. As I have already explained in my previous post in this thread:
Using the past tense, I explained you the context in which https://trisquel.info/en/forum/what-do-about-intellectual-dishonesty-trisquel-forum was written, since you were not a member of the forum at that time. I ended with "I am glad that heyjoe stopped distributing Google's spyware".
You are against "hard language" yet you explain how "utterly hypocritical" he was and all kinds of similar stuff but yeah, you are not spitting at all.
That is not "hard language", in my humble opinion. "Freetardism" is.
> Yet you launch on the forum a "Petition to ban Masaru Suzuqi" and you write in the same thread that I "must be punished".
(...)
So your attempt to compare your actions with mine is simply irrelevant.
In the sentence you quoted out of context, I did not attempt to compare my actions with yours. I was replying to what you wrote (and that I cited right before, to be clear):
Forum threads being turned into court rooms or battle fields of clever defense is not what I am interested to read.
Please explain how it is not a contradiction to claim that you are against "forum threads being turned into court rooms" in a thread that you entitled "Petition to ban Masaru Suzuqi" and where you wrote (in several posts) that another community member "must be punished".
> FSF, RMS quotations etc.
You often show this pattern: when you have nothing to say for yourself you start waving around quotations, referring to authority and through that you attempt to demonstrate how right you are when you are not.
I was arguing against your claim:
Everyone is free to put whatever one wants on his own site. That is part of freedom.
https://trisquel.info/forum/petition-ban-masaru-suzuqi#comment-141812
In the context of the discussion, "whatever" is "Google Analytics". I explained that Google Analytics is nonfree JavaScript running in the Web browsers of the visitors (not on the website) and that it is not only denying the freedom of the users but also abusing them, Google Analytics being spyware. References to what the FSF and RMS write (better than I do and in more details) on the topic look appropriate.
You, on the other hand, do not counter-argue. You prefer to pretend I "have nothing to say". Please, counter-argue.
Also posting something which is 90% off-topic and adding a sentence or two at the end of it to make it sound related is abusive to the intelligence of others.
Again, I was arguing that distributing nonfree JavaScript is *not* "part of freedom". In that context, please explain how https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html and https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/freejs are "90% off-topic".
If OTOH you try to step down from this ultimate position of attempting to be a perfect clone of the authority you quote, then maybe we can have some nice meaningful discussions.
I try to have a nice meaningful discussion with you. Based on facts, with arguments, completed with references, etc. That is all I ask, in particular in this post.
I don't see anywhere heyjoe giving you his consent to do what you did/do. If his personal email address was visible (which should not have been in a GDPR compliant system, unless it is absolutely technically necessary) that still doesn't mean you can use it as a side channel data for abuse. Additionally heyjoe asked his posts and personal data to be erased which as per Article 17 of GDPR is a request which must be completed without undue delay. If any of that personal data remains on the site in any form, that is definitely a breach of the GDPR because the controller keeps processing data after the data subject has requested termination of any processing.
It looks like you believe I am responsible of Trisquel's mailing lists. I am not. And I have never desired heyjoe's (or anybody's) rights denied. That includes those protected by the GDPR. I was not against heyjoe's posts being erased from the forums, at his request.
The email addresses of all those writing in public mailing lists are visible to all other participants. Are all public mailing lists (including Trisquel's) not GDPR-compliant for that reason? I would like a reference: if true, some lawyer must have discussed it.
So just because you ran out of sane arguments against your verbal fights with him and started to act cunningly by data mining him for the sake of using the result against him is in now way different from what a spy does when he collects data about a person from his public activity - where he goes, what he does, who he meets, what car he drives, when etc. You blame another of "distributing spyware", yet you yourself performed a stealthy data collection and misused the collected data for the sake of direct abuse.
I used Abrowser to visit the domain of the email address of somebody writing in a public mailing lists, where I am a participant. GNU LibreJS noticed me the site asked my Web browser to execute Google Analytics. That is all.
That is not data mining. That is not spying. That is not data collection.
But maybe you are referring to the fact that I quoted and referenced heyjoe's posts to write about heyjoe's posts. I indeed try to base what I write on verifiable facts. That is what scientists do. Journalists too.
That is not data mining. That is not spying. That is not data collection.
Think I'm gonna just hang out in the troll room with Masaru for a few days. Things are a bit more sane over there. Maybe I'll learn some Japanese.
You folks enjoy yourselves beating each other up over previously deleted posts. Looks like great fun!
MB,
You see, this is exactly the kind of conversations you had with heyjoe and which you are trying to have with me now - lengthy, annoying, boring, time wasting, off-topic etc.
You pick pieces which are convenient to you, twist them a little bit by putting them in a slightly different context or meaning, avoid the pieces which don't serve the purpose of showing that you (and the authorities you praise) are ultimately right, then based on all this twisted information you build this whole fantasy tower of you being a nice guy (who built a reputation here using these tricks) and the other party being some kind of semi-idiot owing you an endless defense and argumentation against this "soft language" (which is actually soft trolling), deserving your crooked "exposure" in an implied or direct way. This is exactly what clever trolls do. They never break the rules, they always use the particularities of the discussion board and the community for the sake of manipulating others. Is this what you want to do? Be clever rather than be nice to others? Sorry but there is nothing nice in that other thread and not only you never apologized for it but you actually keep defending it.
When you do this there can never be a meaningful discussion and your pretense that you are trying to have one, just because of using "soft language" is simply bullshit. George Carlin says it best:
https://invidio.us/watch?v=o25I2fzFGoY
I am very open to all kinds of people and their interests but I am not going to waste my time to explain things again and again after I have already made myself clear. So if you want to talk to me - talk to me, don't try to play your argumentative games with me, don't tell me that I have the burden to prove to you something or that I owe you an endless analysis of each and every word. I am sure you know a lot of things and have interesting stuff to share. But if your only point in all discussions is going to be that everything that RMS says/does is the ultimate truth which should never be questioned in any way, this is exactly freetardism or maybe even zealotry. Don't be a zealot. It is stupid. You are not stupid but use your intelligence for good, not for annoying others and not for making them zealots.
As for GDPR:
There is that principle of minimisation of data processing. In the context of mailing list archives: it may be necessary for the subscribes to be able to see the mail address of the people in the thread they participate it. However it is not technically necessary to make one's personal data (email address or other) public just because one writes a post in the forums. After all the main idea of the GDPR is data protection, not making data public and leaving it public forever.
So even if certain data was made public by the controller the data subject still has the right to request erasure of that data and the controller is in no way entitled to keep processing it forever. Otherwise imagine a situation with a more sensitive personal data like a credit card number or anything else (leaked or otherwise published). If the principle of "it is public, so it is not personal" applies then anyone can publish anything and pretend nonsense. So there can be no such thing as "I give you my data and you have it forever". That's the whole point of the GDPR.
I will be short, this time. I have better things to do than replying to lies and insults.
You pick pieces which are convenient to you, ...
I literally quoted ~2/3 of your post! And you complain of the lengths of my posts!
... twist them a little bit by putting them in a slightly different context
For the context, here is what comes before your long first sentence I quoted entirely: "MB, Once again, I am not anyone's advocate but:". The sentence claims I keep doing this, that, etc. I reply I have never done this, that, etc. and ask you to provide factual evidences, links to posts. Of course, you do not. You cannot: your claims are lies. And you go back to insults, calling me a "troll", a "freetard", a "zealot", etc. If you keep on violating the Trisquel Community Guidelines (I hope you will not), you may actually end up seeing the moderation you desire so much.
MB,
Nobody has asked you to quote my posts. This is just part of your argumentative gymnastics - to quote something, then contradict it with other quotations from sources which you know everyone respects, thus inviting the other party into an endless defensive fight.
You really keep turning everything into a court room, providing and asking for "factual evidence", explaining your own actions presenting them as virtuous and contrasting them with accusations. Yet you insist that "respect" and "ethics" are what you are looking for, that you have a "humble opinion" after showing full scale arrogance and aggression by directly attacking another member in a thread dedicated to it. Your nonsense go as far as claiming that calling someone "full-of-shit" is "soft language" yet you pretend to be the victim here who has been unfairly suggested for punishment and who has been unfairly called troll. The fact is nobody has called you anything. I just explained what trolls do, what freetardism usually is and told you not to be a zealot. It is part of your classical word twisting to translate "this is what trolls do" into "you are a troll" and other "insults". This is a theater in which you play deeply offended by something which never happened but you are perfectly fine with doing much worse to others. You really like to this game of sophisticated bullshit but I am tired.
This thread was opened because I am so sick of off-topics, not because I hate anyone or because I want to call him names. Restricting a member from particular forum section is common practice when he fails to stick to the rules/topics of it. You yourself don't have a single post that is on topic (and only on topic) and obviously one off-topic leads to another, cross-linking etc. I am not going to reply to you any more.
You really keep turning everything into a court room, providing and asking for "factual evidence", explaining your own actions presenting them as virtuous and contrasting them with accusations.
You open a thread entitled "Petition to ban Masaru Suzuqi", to get Masaru banned from this forum. You repetitively state in that same thread that I "must be punished". You base you accusation on hard language ("freetardism", "troll", "zealot", etc.) and lies. When I point out the hard language, you reply: "this is a theater in which you play deeply offended"! When I point out the lies and asks for evidences of the opposite (links to posts), you do not provide any (of course: there are none). Instead, you blame me for being the one "turning everything into a court room"!
Focusing on the new clear lies:
Your nonsense go as far as claiming that calling someone "full-of-shit" is "soft language"
Please provide a link to a post where I would claim that.
Restricting a member from particular forum section is common practice when he fails to stick to the rules/topics of it. You yourself don't have a single post that is on topic (and only on topic)
Most of my posts provide technical help to users of Trisquel: https://trisquel.info/users/magic-banana/track
The "rules" are https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/trisquel-community-guidelines
In this thread, I am not the one who fails to stick to them.
MB,
You really can't stop.
Alright, you asked for it:
# Freetardism defined (as linked in that issue on GitHub):
https://digdeeper.neocities.org/ghost/freetardism.html#define2
I don't see anywhere on the page a reference to "retard" (as you claim), so just like in many other cases this is yet another attempt of yours to twist something into what it is not by giving it another meaning and fighting against that other meaning, thus "proving" that you are such a nice humble and civil guy who is defending truth and facts and that the person you talk to is some kind of villain acting against you and everyone else.
# Troll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
Would you say you are not sowing discourse here? Or that you have been on topic the whole time? What makes you think your own "legitimate" ego-defense is the topic here that we must all engage to read to infinity?
chaosmonk also provided a good link about sea lioning.
"Sealioning (also spelled sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment which consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility."
Your words in the current thread (now let's see your stats as you insist so much that you are not doing what you do):
"the burden of the proof is on you" (2x)
"please provide factual evidences" (4x)
"you do not provide any [factual evidences]" (1x)
"I tend to prefer such factual evidences" (1x)
"Please, counter-argue"
"in my humble opinion" - but one is not humble because one says so but because of something entirely different (which I am not going to go into).
"I have never counted the posts of heyjoe"
Yes, you have and those of others too:
https://trisquel.info/en/forum/what-do-about-intellectual-dishonesty-trisquel-forum
Here are more "non-lies" of yours in the pretense that you are not continuing to count heyjoe's posts in the current thread:
"the 7+ posts a day were derailing the threads of other users"
"he only opened two threads"
So whoever uses Google Analytics is some "full-of-shit" "hypocrite" giving "epidemiological speeches" (your "soft language") but it is fine if you follow what others do, keeps stats of it, analyze them and publish that for the sake of "exposing" some (supposedly evil or at least very dirty) activity and working directly to build a bad image of the person. You are against surveillance but it is fine if you do it yourself, especially when mixed with direct personal attacks and abuse. You are against "lies" but it is fine if you twist things to your convenience.
> Please provide a link to a post where I would claim that [calling someone full-of-shit]
Here is where you call someone that:
https://trisquel.info/en/forum/what-do-about-intellectual-dishonesty-trisquel-forum
And the current thread is where you explain that using hard language is against the rules. So it is OK when you do it but when someone else does it (actually according to your interpretation only, as shown above) - it is fine. So this twisting of everything is not hypocrisy according to you but what others do is. Well, if that ain't bullshit...
BTW now after this became again such a big topic: I remember heyjoe saying that GA was planned for removal from his site but even that wasn't enough for you. You kept insisting that it could be done in 5 minutes etc etc. - just to prove that he is the bad guy and you are some kind of ultra honest person, deeply concerned about truth and honesty who has found incriminating and sinful "evidence" about him. Well, no wonder the guy left. Now you thrive and keep kicking the dead dog.
Yes, I maintain that anyone who does what you do deserves to be punished because all this is against any actual respect to others or even basic polite human behavior in a community. This simply makes any sane discussion impossible because it is always centered around the persona who insists that he can do it forever and on any convenient occasion.
I won't reply to you further, this time it is final. I know you can continue with your "non failing to stick to the rules" forever. Hopefully you won't be allowed to.
# Freetardism defined (as linked in that issue on GitHub):
https://digdeeper.neocities.org/ghost/freetardism.html#define2
I don't see anywhere on the page a reference to "retard" (as you claim)
Indeed, that article (where the FSF is the "freetard") does not tell that "freetard" is a blend of "free" and "retard". Let us take an actual dictionary that includes that word:
(Internet, slang, derogatory) A zealous advocate of free software.
Origin: Blend of free and retard
https://www.yourdictionary.com/freetard
"I have never counted the posts of heyjoe"
Yes, you have and those of others too:
https://trisquel.info/en/forum/what-do-about-intellectual-dishonesty-trisquel-forum
For that post, I did count heyjoe's posts. That is only time I did that. That is precisely what I wrote in the whole sentence that you conveniently cut after eight words:
I have never counted the posts of heyjoe, or any other user, at any other occasion than in the context of that thread, to show that heyjoe was indeed flooding the "Trisquel users" forum.
Using your own words: you pick pieces which are convenient to you, twist them a little bit by putting them in a slightly different context or meaning, avoid the pieces which don't serve the purpose of showing that you are ultimately right.
Claiming that "I keep referring to [https://trisquel.info/en/forum/what-do-about-intellectual-dishonesty-trisquel-forum], keep counting the guy's post" remains a lie.
"the 7+ posts a day were derailing the threads of other users"
"he only opened two threads"
Repeating myself for the third time:
Using the past tense, I explained you the context in which https://trisquel.info/en/forum/what-do-about-intellectual-dishonesty-trisquel-forum was written, since you were not a member of the forum at that time. I ended with "I am glad that heyjoe stopped distributing Google's spyware".
So whoever uses Google Analytics is some "full-of-shit" "hypocrite" giving "epidemiological speeches" ...
Not "whoever uses Google Analytics" but heyjoe at that time, which is over since he has removed Google Analytics.
... but it is fine if you follow what others do, keeps stats of it, analyze them and publish that for the sake of "exposing" some (supposedly evil or at least very dirty) activity and working directly to build a bad image of the person. You are against surveillance but it is fine if you do it yourself, especially when mixed with direct personal attacks and abuse. You are against "lies" but it is fine if you twist things to your convenience.
I do not follow what others do: I read the forum. I do not keep stats, neither analyze them: I ran, once, a command line to provide a factual evidence of a flooding of the forum. That is not surveillance. I do not twist things to my convenience, like you have just done, quoting only the beginning of a sentence, or like you do right below:
> Please provide a link to a post where I would claim that [calling someone full-of-shit]
Here is where you call someone that:
https://trisquel.info/en/forum/what-do-about-intellectual-dishonesty-trisquel-forum
The whole sentence is:
Please provide a link to a post where I would claim that [calling someone "full-of-shit" is "soft language"]
I have never done that. The trimmed sentence does not even make sense.
So this twisting of everything is not hypocrisy according to you but what others do is. Well, if that ain't bullshit...
Are you talking about yourself?
BTW now after this became again such a big topic: I remember heyjoe saying that GA was planned for removal from his site but even that wasn't enough for you. You kept insisting that it could be done in 5 minutes etc etc. - just to prove that he is the bad guy and you are some kind of ultra honest person, deeply concerned about truth and honesty who has found incriminating and sinful "evidence" about him. Well, no wonder the guy left. Now you thrive and keep kicking the dead dog.
No, I do not. What is a "big topic" to you is a "dead topic" to me and, apparently, everybody else: after heyjoe left (more than one year ago) and before this thread, I believe nobody on this forum ever mentioned him. I certainly did not, contrary to what you claim. And again: "I am glad that heyjoe stopped distributing Google's spyware".
Calling a community member a "freetard" is against our Community Guidelines: https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/trisquel-community-guidelines (section "Respect among community members"). In contrast, Masaru's writings do not infringe any guideline, in my humble opinion. I see no reason to oust him.
In https://trisquel.info/en/forum/what-do-about-intellectual-dishonesty-trisquel-forum , I was not even proposing to oust heyjoe, although, contrary to Masaru, heyjoe was significantly harming the community of users on Triquel's forums. You have no idea: you were not a user of this forum when heyjoe was and heyjoe's posts were all erased, at his request (what has turned the affected threads unreadable). He was not banned. He chose to leave, a better (not perfect but maybe the best possible) outcome.
If you think Masaru "has been wasting the time of many people", you would have certainly thought worse of heyjoe: as the output of a command in https://trisquel.info/en/forum/what-do-about-intellectual-dishonesty-trisquel-forum shows, heyjoe was writing, in average, more than seven posts a day in the "Trisquel users" forum (even more counting "The Troll Lounge", where Masaru mainly posts, what is appropriate). They were not posts in threads heyjoe was opening (he only opened two threads, during the two months he spent on Trisquel's forums). No, the 7+ posts a day were derailing the threads of other users, often requesting technical help. heyjoe's posts were huge. Longer than Masaru's. They were mainly trying to show the free software movement pointless, always using the same "arguments", full of fallacies and sarcasm.
One of heyjoe's main point was that, on the Internet, you communicate with "infected" servers, which spy on you. Worse: that surveillance often happens through code written by companies that are partners of the PRISM program. That is utterly hypocritical for somebody who was administrating a Web server that, at that time, was distributing Google Analytics. It was there, as everybody who followed the link https://anchev.net/home.js little (weeks) after I posted it can testify.
Such a behavior goes against the free software movement too. Contrary to "open source", that movement harshly criticizes those who distribute proprietary software (denying users' essential freedoms is *not* "part of freedom"!). Especially in a sneaky way (automatically downloaded and executed, without the consent of the user). Especially for spying on the user. Especially for mass surveillance.
I am glad that heyjoe stopped distributing Google's spyware.
Since he mostly posts in the Troll Lounge, if you don't like his posts, just neglect them.
I see no requirement that you read anyone's posts, so your petition would fail on that point. Also, our forum appears to be more than half in foreign languages, so the petition would fail on the English requirement as well.
Better to ask Masaru to work on a project to help translate some of the Trisquel materials into languages that he is familiar with. Has anyone asked you to help with that yet, Masaru? I know there are a number of translators and different translation projects here.
Yes Strypey and maybe Mason have given me the suggestion before.
I feel that the Japanese people's degree of the concern of computer freedom/security is the lowest level in the world. And most Japanese have feelings of rejection toward English language. So I doubt if it is worth translating them into Japanese. And like the Romanian forum, I guess that even if the project makes the Japanese forum, it would follow the same pattern.
So translating those materials into Japanese and making the Japanese forum don't seem to be very meaningful for the Trisquel project to me.
A Japanese-speaking forum, documentation in Japanese, etc. look even more valuable if many Japanese-speaking people reject English. If you are right about very few Japanese-speaking users caring about free software (hence Trisquel), it may indeed be a lot of efforts for little benefits... although, on the other hand, it is harder to advocate for the use of free software if that use is made difficult by the lack of a forum and of documentation in the language the potential users speak: a chicken-or-egg problem.
Japanese translations in a culture where no one else is writing about libre software in Japanese would make it unique and highly valuable!
Opinions of you guys might be reasonable. But I have not much confidence that I will be able to do it with the sense of responsibility thoroughly, because I have not done such a job so I don't know the procedure for the project, so I think that I should talk about it to some degree with you guys then if the project can have an enough intention to do it, I might have something I can do. How should I do??
> so I don't know the procedure for the project, so I think that I should talk about it to some degree with you guys then if the project can have an enough intention to do it, I might have something I can do. How should I do??
I'll be happy to talk to you about it more, although we should start another thread.
All the information about the translation projects is on this great web page: https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/website-translations
If you need help finding someone to discuss the project with, tell me and I'll try to help you find someone.
I understand it. I will read the link page later. Thank you.
I sent an email to the mod about maybe one month ago to ask him the situations of the translation project to consider if there is something I can help. But I have not still received his reply (and the USB key too. I wanted one).
I think that I was invited to the translation project, so I considered it, so it was not my intention, though. I read the web page about the translation project quite seriously and I was thinking about it quite seriously and I think that I sent the email courteously. As is often the case, despite I behaved well to a person, the person reply by ignoring is rude, I think. Is not it rude? Just in my opinion though, I cannot believe it. Is it normal in West? I want to ask how great you are to be able to reply by ignoring others's sincere manners. Am I wrong? How great you are, sir? I'm sorry not to know your greatness.
I am afraid that I have not replied to others's posts just once or twice in this forum because of a explicit certain reason. Because I think it is rude as a human being. Even a dog would feel something if it was ignored. There is a post in this thread and it is written "Just don't demand replies". What kind of communication is it? Don't make me laugh.
But I already have no intention to do the translation. So it is OK. What was this? lol
> - try to understand his poor English
To be fair, "General Free Software Talk" does not have forums for different languages like "Trisquel Users" does, so in order to include non-native speakers we can't insist on perfect English.
> - read his endless lengthy off-topic speeches
I just ignore those. As long as they stay in the Troll Lounge I don't see them as a problem.
> - stand his behavior which has recently become aggressive (he really demands to receive replies to each and every thing which comes to his mind [1])
Sealioning[1] is annoying, but only happens when people take the bait. That was a mistake on my part.
> I suggest that Masaru Suzuqi receives a ban for 1 month.
I hope that won't be necessary. Masaru has also had some amicable and meaningful discussions with users here, and I think the trolling can just be ignored. I would only want to ban a legitimate (as opposed to spam) user as a last resort, and I don't think we're at that point. However, there is enough tension here that a moderator should probably look at the situation. I've brought this thread to David's attention.
Hi!
As some of you have pointed out, a certain degree of offtopic-ness is expected here and most of the other concerns expressed by zigote don't really apply in a multi-cultural community where lots of members are expressing themselves in tongues other than their native ones (meta!).
That being said, I would like to remind everybody to please refrain from starting purely off-topic threads outside of the Troll Lounge and to try not to derail other topics even though that's sometimes unavoidable in this medium.
Thanks everyone for being a part of this community!
Glad to see people are generally positive and tolerant.
I guess I just got sick of all that (sorta) spam (unsolicited off-topic info).
Indeed - the Troll Lounge is the place for it. Sadly Masaru uses this forum for it too. But well, if everyone is OK with that, then I must be wrong.
Forget it. But never do it again. If you do, there will be the most dire consequences for you and all Trisquel users.
> Glad to see people are generally positive and tolerant.
I guess I just got sick of all that (sorta) spam (unsolicited off-topic info).
> Indeed - the Troll Lounge is the place for it. Sadly Masaru uses this forum for it too. But well, if everyone is OK with that, then I must be wrong.
I sympathize with your frustration, but I think with a little more care toward what does and doesn't belong in the Troll Lounge everything will get better and descalate.
- Nobody is obliged to read all post(like already mentioned), ignore it.
- Blocking someone in a form like this, is not really helpful, if you block someone because he is spamming, he can create another account and re-spam.
- Of course he (and not only he, I do it sometimes also, srry for that) talks offtopic things, we can try to minimize it. Or maybe the mods can add an option to delete or move our own posts to another thread(or make a suggestion button, to move offtopics things to troll-lounge or somewhere else)
- Or the mods can create more theme-focused forums.
- If you don't understand his English, ask him to explain what he is trying say.
- and indeed, be tolerant and open to anyone. :)
I see. Reasonable and sophisticated. I understand, perhaps.
Maybe this is a little bit offtopic again, if it is srry for that.
I think we should be able to have a discussion why Free Software matters and when it is not good at all(or where it lacks in our lives, …)
And people here should argue and share their opinions about that and their experience in using Free Software. (without attacking each other, or things like you are using A, but you are talking here about not using A, you’re a freetard, …)
One example is https://trisquel.info/en/forum/italian-administration-goes-open-source-and-will-benefit-free-software
Where we have good things, but what are the blocking things and start a discussion about that.
Compare countries/cultures and their level of interest in Free Software, …
I didn’t follow the previous post about heyjoe(he is banned or he left) or I’m not reading troll lounge(once in a month or two), so I don’t know who said what and who is picking which side.
But I agree to the fact, that the purpose has to be discussion and sharing experience, but not pointing users to non-free software and so on… Or repeating on every occasion “FreeSoftware is bullshit, this is why I don’t use it”-kind of messages
I hope we won't need to lock this thread, even though I think the original topic has mostly ran its course.
I'm mostly an optimist, so I truly hope we can learn some things from this thread, stuff like:
* Expressing yourself freely and enjoying the discussion of broad topics with others who share at least some common interests is always tempting and one of the good things of being a part of a community, but we should we aware of the time we're requiring from these others and try to be a bit concise (even if that means posting separately about several topics) and as always, avoid derailing other lightly related threads.
* Good and useful conversations can get easily hidden in long multi-topic threads.
* We are all quite different (duh!) and not all of us share the same way of engaging in a discussion. What may be triggering language to some may appear really soft to others and writing (I'd dare to say particularly when trying to be civil) is not the best way of arriving to a common understanding in a short time. Sometimes while we try to do so, we focus too much in the bits in which we don't agree and as a result it may seem that we're in opposing bands when we're not far apart.
* This community's amazing approach to preserving freedom in many senses doesn't help to make these discussion topics shorter or less visible. We try to make everyone feel welcome and when some community member has an issue with another, we don't usually have a clear cut solution so we try to speak to all parts and arrive to a common point. It works most of the time. Occasionally it requires lengthy discussions (which may sometimes give a poor image of our community) and just in a handful of occasions, even that hasn't been enough to achieve peace.
Sorry for this quite long post (something about the pot and the kettle?), in which conclusions I may also be really wrong. I'm definitely still learning about the best way to be a part of this community since I joined it some time ago :)
david,
Freedom (incl. of speech) doesn't need to be anarchy. Extreme liberalism is in no way different from extreme violence. Violence has many forms - not just the butchery. There is violence when one repeatedly and "softly" annoys others, there can be violence in a gesture, in a look, in the tone of the voice etc.
For people to enjoy conversations there need to be rules and a certain degree of enforcing them when necessary. There should be no tolerance when there is trolling, turning a topic into another topic (instead of opening a separate one and linking to it if necessary) or other annoyances. That doesn't mean to jump into the other extremity: super strict moderation. But as it is now there is really no moderation whatsoever. Not even slight warnings (first, second and last).
That thread where Magic Banana attacked another member as a result of which the other member left should have been erased long ago. It is absolutely unacceptable for a community where freedom and ethics. There is nothing to learn from it and all it does is to perpetuate all the bullshit said in it. Also it contains personal data which was made public and which should have been erased/anonymized as the data subject requested account erasure.
Moderation is important, but I think there are some technical improvements to the forum that might guide users toward the right etiquette. I've been thinking about this for a while, and given the current discussion and the fact that the website is in the process of being redesigned, this seemed like a good time to collect my thoughts and make some proposals:
chaosmonk,
Let's talk in another thread:
https://trisquel.info/en/forum/suggestions-about-improvements-forum
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